Official Level Design Contest #5 (Playing Phase - Discussion Topic)

[namida]

I'm not sure if this one's another backroute or if I've hit the intended solution now. However, I did save 30% here and have a couple of diggers left over...

[Crane]

That might take some thought, as it's quite close to the intended solution.  I'll figure something out though.

Spoiler

I really don't want to replace the left-facing arrows with down-facing arrows if I can help it, as it really gives the game away.

[namida]

I probably wouldn't've found that very quickly had I not found the backroutes in earlier versions. I don't know exactly what your intended solution is, but if it's that close, and the backroute isn't too easily-found, sometimes it's better to leave them in. Trying to force one single solution can often reduce the fun of a level (though without knowing the intended solution exactly, I can't say for sure whether it'd do so for this level).

[Crane]

I'll keep that in mind - thanks namida.  I'll post the intended solution once the competition is over though.  The thing is, I think the backroute is a little easier to find than the intended solution.

Spoiler

You're supposed to use five diggers to save approximately 45 lemmings from the top, using release rate tricks to save as many as possible.  The Climber and Floater is used as you did, to get over the wall, mine into the steel to turn around and through the dividing wall, although only after the first group of lemmings (from the first digger) hit the wall and turn around to head towards the expanse of water to the exit.  While the pathfinder is building the bridge, you should have 2 bashers and a digger left - one basher is used in the same way as you do in your solution, clearing a path towards the left so the lemmings can loop back to the exit, while the other one is used one level up so as to increase the distance lemmings have to walk so the other basher has time to finish (and is sacrificed when he breaks through the other side and walks into the water).  In the end, two of the five groups of lemmings need to be saved to reach the 10% quota normally.  Finally the 6th digger is used to dig down to reach the exit.

If are very good with timing the Climber/Miner, you can prolong the lives of the first group too, with only 2 or 3 lemmings turning around to walk over the Ghostbuster trap and towards the water.  This allows you to start the bashers earlier and possibly save three groups instead of two.

[bsmith]

Solution to Lemming Mashed Potato Facility V2. I'm fairly sure this one's a backroute, unless...

Spoiler

one of the platformers is actually intended to just be a decoy skill. But if it is the intended solution, it's pretty impressive how perfectly things fall into place together.

This solution could probably also be modified to save one or two extra lemmings.

That is an impressive backroute.  The digger I removed was supposed to be a decoy skill - while making my level I never thought about using the digger where you did.  I could easily modify the level so that my solution uses only one platformer, but that won't stop your backroute.

[namida]

One approach that might work is...

Spoiler

Placing steel underneath where I used the digger.

However, this could arguably impact the aesthetic quality of the level, or perhaps interfere with the intended solution depending on what exactly it is.

[Nepster]

Solution for Tough Call V4:

Spoiler

My solution to V1 required only slight changes.

Solution to Lemming Mashed Potato Facility V2:

Spoiler

My solution to V1 still works, because it turned out that the digger was not really necessary.

Electroshock:
Still no solution, that uses the tricks I wanted. Crane's solution is getting closer, though. The next version replaces the builder by a platformer and has several other slight terrain changes.

[namida]

Lemming Mashed Potato Facility V3, my solution is fairly similar to the previous one.

Spoiler

The only real difference is that I used the stacker-bomber trick to make the fall survivable, rather than to get past the first wall as they now fall onto that wall anyway.

Electroshock V4, likewise, my solution is just a variation on my previous one.

Spoiler

However, the timing for this one was a lot tighter due to the extra trick at the end. Though it could possibly also be done by platforming the other edge too, and assigning a climber from the crowd, rather than bringing an extra worker in at the right time.

[namida]

Tough Call V5, something fairly similar to my previous solutions still works. It's not as overkill on the saved amount though - it only saves slightly above the requirement. However, the similarity to solutions you've said are backroutes, as well as...

Spoiler

the two-digger trick used with the lemmings that (most of) eventually reach the exit...

make me think it's probably still a backroute.

[namida]

Tough Call V6. Not sure how effective these changes were; almost-the-same solution still works.

[Crane]

Bummer!  Maybe I do need the arrows after all.  I think I have an idea as to the fix now though.  I just hope I'm not destroying the level's fun factor.  Thanks for your relentless testing namida.

[namida]

My solution would still have worked with one-way-left arrows (but not with one-way-downs). Whether it could be adjusted to work in the presence of one-way-downs, I'm not sure.

[Crane]

I was considering one-way right arrows, but there's an annoying mechanic where a basher or miner will stop a digger even if they are facing the wrong way, and hence allow for a means to trap the lemmings.  Honestly I'm not sure how to stop it.

[namida]

With a miner, that's to be expected (it's a bit more surprising that a basher allows this). The reason this couldn't (most of the time) happen under DOS Lemmings, is that the check is "is the lemming currently inside a one-way walls area" - if they're merely standing on it, but not inside it, they'll take one swing, hit terrain the wrong way, and turn around. NeoLemmix still implements similar logic, but one critical difference is that one way wall trigger areas are automatically "cleaned up" - if there's no solid terrain pixel at a given coordinate, any one way wall trigger area on that pixel will be removed.

The most obvious way to notice that is, if you destroy part of a one way wall, then use a builder inside the destroyed area, on DOS, the builder's bridge becomes one-way wall. In NeoLemmix, it does not. This can be thought of as that one-way-wall areas are part of the terrain itself, not objects (this is completely inaccurate from a technical point of view, but is a very good way of explaining how they seem to work for the end user).

[Crane]

Well, if you dig through down arrows, or one-way arrows pointing against the lemming's direction, then the lemming will bash once (without breaking any terrain) and stop.  Just means I have to think more deeply about patching things, although I'll most likely leave it until after the competition now.