Codes vs Saves vs Unlock-All

[Simon]

Note from namida: I have split this topic off from the What video game(s) are you playing at the moment? topic as it had gone quite far from the original discussion.

codes above a save system

Why computer games need an option to unlock all content
Alternate title: Passwords and save files alone are major suck

I've wanted to write this rant for some time. This has been a good opportunity. :-]

-- Simon

[Proxima]

We had an interesting discussion on that in chat a few days ago. I still disagree 

Locking content means that unlocking it feels like an achievement and reward. Depending on the quality of the gameplay itself and the in-game reward, this can be a beautiful feeling that makes all the frustration of getting there finally worth it. DROD: The Second Sky is an excellent example -- at the end, it feels like you put in the hard work and saved the surfacers; and throughout the game, every level is a new part of the story, and you feel motivated to play and solve the puzzles by wanting to know what comes next. Even in something like Touhou that has minimal plot, there is the satisfaction of watching the hard-earned ending sequence while a new piece of beautiful music plays.

Talking of which, I'm still playing Touhou as my main diversion from the rest of life    I completed Mountain of Faith back in March, and this week I finally succeeded in clearing Perfect Cherry Blossom. Now I feel it's time for me to have a go at an Extra stage....

[namida]

It depends on the kind of game. For a puzzle game, where each level is basically independant but based on the same underlying rules, it would generally be okay (whether it's optimal or not is another matter, but it's at least viable). On the other hand, I'd be very interested to hear how Simon feels his suggestion would work in relation to a JRPG or wide-open sandbox (GTA style) game.

Even in puzzle games, there can be a point to it though. For example, Lemmings 2 would not work as well with an "unlock everything" option as Lemmings 1 would.

[Simon]

Proxima, that's not a counter-argument. If they like this reward, people will progress and unlock as designed. Using the option feels like cheating, so they won't use it.

I'm concerned with the resulting problems of locked content, once the game becomes a tool. What the first-time player sees is entirely unaffected.

L2 and L3's puzzles want to be independent, but then are not. Assume people have gotten silver on each level. When you now fix a mistake in one level, you must re-play all later levels, using the exact same solution as before. This forces drudgery, and thus is bad design. The correct design, of course, is to track lemmings lost instead of lemmings saved -- at least once every level is silvered.

JRPGs would benefit most of this, because they're taking endless hours to play. You should be able to start them at various points in the story. Again, most people won't do this, even if possible. It's a fallback against drudgery. In this regard, GTA feels to me the same as role playing games.

This isn't ludicrous at all. Novels sold as e-books would never dare to lock the later pages. Nobody would buy such a horribly-designed system. Then why enforce it on game players?

-- Simon

[namida]

JRPGs would benefit most of this, because they're taking endless hours to play. You should be able to start them at various points in the story.

And what about levelling to that point, especially in games with flexible levelling systems? What should be used as the guideline of how to level up the character? Even if the game simply throws a whole bunch of EXP at you; there's still going through the hassle of applying it in the case of flexible-levelling systems. And it still doesn't account for that some players may conciously avoid overlevelling, some players may go out of their way to do so, etc. Nor does it take into account what items a player may or may not have picked up on the way there.

Comparing games to novels is a completely senseless comparison. One of them, the experience may in many cases be determined by the user's choices at previous points; the other does not.

[Simon]

Give whatever feels average at that point, based on previous playtesting. People who want full control over what they have will play from the beginning.

Comparing games to novels is a completely senseless comparison. One of them, the experience may in many cases be determined by the user's choices at previous points; the other does not.

So? Therefore, you must drudge?

-- Simon

[namida]

Give whatever feels average at that point, based on previous playtesting. People who want full control over what they have will play from the beginning.

Once you introduce this feature, there will be constant demands for it to account for more and more different scenarios. To the end user, "if you don't like what we give you, play it from the beginning" feels even worse than not having the option at all. Perhaps a "new game plus" type option where you resume from one of these set points with what you had in your actual save at this point is workable, but a general catch-all simply is not feasible in games of sufficient complexity. You would basically need to create a save file editor; at which point you may as well just create an actual save file editor.

[Proxima]

Proxima, that's not a counter-argument. If they like this reward, people will progress and unlock as designed. Using the option feels like cheating, so they won't use it.

This is simply not true. For me -- and, I suspect, for many (and this is backed up by similar discussions we have had on the DROD forums) -- the experience of playing a game is all about the counterplay of frustration and satisfaction. If a reward is available for free, achieving it the hard way is lessened. When you reach a frustrating part, if there is a way to just skip it, the temptation is always there. Using the option will not feel like cheating if it's offered as part of the game. (Does playing levels in any order in Lix feel like cheating to you?)

I'm concerned with the resulting problems of locked content, once the game becomes a tool.

I suspect this is the root of our disagreement. I don't know what you mean by the game "becoming a tool". Can you explain this phrase? To me, a game is a game -- it's an entirely different type of experience from using a tool (or, for that matter, from reading a novel) and so you can't use analogies from those to argue about what a game should be like. (That said, I would certainly agree that there is a wide spectrum of different games, including some that are more tool-like and some that are more novel-like.)

[namida]

Hm. I think it might be time to stop having that discussion in this topic, and instead create a new topic specifically for it; since this is meant to be a bit more of a "throw out names of games you're playing (or looking forward to) topic" rather than "debate the merits of passwords vs save system vs just have everything unlocked".

I'll split the topic when I get a chance where no one appears to be writing posts adding to that discussion.

EDIT: Done. Simon, feel free to change the topic title if you feel something else would be more appropriate.

[Simon]

The split is good, thanks. Title is good; at least once pepole know how I want unlock-all to be an option, and not necessarily the main design.

Carefully typing up stuff now, but it's getting too lengthy, nobody is gonna read that, will take time.

In the meanwhile, if the DROD forums are public, I'd love a link to such a discussion.

-- Simon

[NaOH]

Why computer games need an option to unlock all content
Alternate title: Passwords and save files alone are major suck

I've wanted to write this rant for some time. This has been a good opportunity. :-]

I definitely agree with your argument. However, I'm curious as to what you would suggest for games with more complicated save files, ones which have more than just a single variable indicating "level." RPGs have precisely-defined character stats in their save files, Super Metroid keeps track of all the items you've found, all the places you've been, and a few other variables. Games with complicated, non-linear storylines cannot easily be reconstructed from a player's memory, and the suspension of disbelief might be broken if the player has to go through such a process -- or if the player just has the option to mess with the save file.

Even in something like Touhou that has minimal plot, there is the satisfaction of watching the hard-earned ending sequence while a new piece of beautiful music plays.

This is true, the "what happens next?" drive in Touhou is very strong, thanks to the intricate music and beautiful visual sequences. Allowing players to skip ahead would break this drive. However, it is sometimes a killjoy to get all the way to level 6 of 6 and then run out of lives / continues, having to restart the game from scratch. Subterranean Animism had the best system, I think; it allows infinite continues, but the penalty for running out of lives is restarting the level. (Not a huge setback, for those who haven't played Touhou; basically like returning to the last save point in IWBTG.) This means continued play will eventually result in reaching the end, whereas in other Touhou games the player must make it all the way to the end in one go.

For the expert players, there is a "better" ending which can be achieved by reaching the end without running out of lives. And for the rest of us, playing the game is its own reward, I suppose.

There is something Subterranean Animism lacks, though; even though the player gets infinite continues, there is no save file system. This means, rather arbitrarily, that closing the program results in loss of progress, but continued play will not result in loss of progress.

[ccexplore]

Sounds like it depends on the game.  I'm not sure I'm convinced that an optional unlock all is a good idea for every game, but certainly I think it'd work well for many of the Lemmings-style games.

With all that said, if the only argument against save files is because people don't do backups, I kinda feel like there's a far larger problem at hand--I mean, there ain't gonna be no "optional unlock" for stuff like your personal photos and documents that will be at risk without adequate backups.

I think the password system idea is most likely a historical artifact, meaning that in very early days (likely before some of us were even born), primitive capabilities might cause the password system to be the only viable system for the given hardware/software limitations.  Of course by the time PCs are widely found at home those limitations no longer hold (though I think it took slightly longer to get there over on the console side of gaming, which feeds into my next sentence as well).  But given that password system is also likely easiest to implement and has historical precedent, I can see it being an attractive option for the game developers, even if it isn't exactly user-friendly.  Returning back to 2015, unless one is going for nostalgia, I do have to say, please don't inflict passwords on us anymore.

[Proxima]

I partly agree, but passwords can be good if combined with another system.

A good example is the Repton games, in their modern Windows incarnation. The main system is that the game remembers which levels you've completed, and within each scenario (set of 8 levels) you can play any level if you've completed the previous ones. If you lose your data, completed a level at a friend's house, or just want to skip a level you're stuck on, you can enter a password (which are all available on the Repton Resource Page website). It's true that the password system is in the game partly for historical reasons (when it first came out on the BBC Micro, passwords were the only way to play later levels without having to start a scenario from the beginning each time, as ccexplore describes). But it's still a nice compromise between no unlocking and having all levels unlocked.

Also, Repton passwords are always 7-letter dictionary words, and the eclectic selection has always been part of the games' charm 

[Simon]

Once you introduce this feature, there will be constant demands for it to account for more and more different scenarios. To the end user, "if you don't like what we give you, play it from the beginning" feels even worse than not having the option at all.

This is a pure slippery slope argument without evidence so far. I don't believe that the user feels like described.

You're correct with: If the catch-all is not workable for a game, don't implement a catch-all. Aim for something weaker.

Independent levels allow a very easy catch-all.

Proxima, that's not a counter-argument. If they like this reward, people will progress and unlock as designed. Using the option feels like cheating, so they won't use it.

This is simply not true. For me -- and, I suspect, for many (and this is backed up by similar discussions we have had on the DROD forums) -- the experience of playing a game is all about the counterplay of frustration and satisfaction. If a reward is available for free, achieving it the hard way is lessened. When you reach a frustrating part, if there is a way to just skip it, the temptation is always there.

I believe that you feel like so. The consequence is, you will then enjoy the game more when other people can't use some option you wouldn't want to use.

How would you feel when the author ships two versions of the game, one with unlock-all and one without, and you choose and play the one without? That's how I treat the unlock-all option. It's not part of the game.

The satisfaction doesn't come from the reward, but from having accomplished something. You can't get that by skipping levels. I assert that this is true for most -- the reward isn't what drives people. Evidence is how people spend hours and hours on games that have unlock-all, how money is a very weak motivator for programmers, and how existing unwatched youtube videos of rewards don't affect game enjoyment.

(Link please to the DROD discussion, so I can dissect. :->)

Using the option will not feel like cheating if it's offered as part of the game. (Does playing levels in any order in Lix feel like cheating to you?)

Skipping unrelated levels never feels like cheating to me, even if the game doesn't want me skipping. Who would I cheat in the first place when I know there's unsolved levels remaining?

I'm concerned with the resulting problems of locked content, once the game becomes a tool.

I suspect this is the root of our disagreement. I don't know what you mean by the game "becoming a tool". Can you explain this phrase? To me, a game is a game -- it's an entirely different type of experience from using a tool (or, for that matter, from reading a novel) and so you can't use analogies from those to argue about what a game should be like. (That said, I would certainly agree that there is a wide spectrum of different games, including some that are more tool-like and some that are more novel-like.)

Excellent awareness.

The game becomes a tool once you think of it as a data processor.

Most people will lose interest before coming to this stage. It's a late stage for most, it comes well after beating the game. On the other hand, some people are interested in hacking details much earlier.

When one treats the game as a tool acting on data (levels), not having the unlock-all option is a misfeature. The tool could easily work on everything, it's not a problem at all for it, but it jumps through extra programming hoops to prevent you from doing the normal thing. It prevents culture.

This is one reason for the unlock-all, not the only one. Unlock-all is valuable for the non-toolers.

I partly agree, but passwords can be good if combined with another system.

Passwort + save system is an interesting solution. I assume the password advances the save file, so it only has to be entered once to unlock stuff permanently.

-- Simon

[IchoTolot]

For a long time my opinion was against unlock all. It's not Lemmings like and you need to progress to the final boss level.
But after this thread appeared I thought about it and now I ask myself why Lemmings wasn't unlock all in the first place!

It has to do with a (and maybe even the) main point of the game:

You get stuck!  (and sometimes over weeks and months)

It's is a puzzle game, so you need to think about a solution to a puzzle. Here the puzzle is to manipulate the terrain to get from A to B.
If you think about a solution and don't get it right away you are stucked at this point.
If you don't get stucked in a pack (getting all the solution after a few tries) the whole puzzle aspect of this pack falls short.
And remember: What are the levels which you will remember forever?
The ones you got stuck really hard and solved them finally after days, months or even years. And often they are the best ones! Example: The original games!
"No added colors or Lemmings" and  "There's madness in the method" are the levels where nearly everyone got stuck (I got stuck for a year back in the days and there are my favorites).

But there is one point that keeps pushing these type of puzzles down:

The levels from this point onward lay dead!

If you get stuck hard you often need to take breaks from this level. What do you do?
Play another rank or take a break from the game.
If you are stuck for a long time you maybe loose interest in the pack even if you played just a part of it, because you cannot access the rest! (which usually has a lot of levels where you won't get stuck)

And that's the point why unlock all is in my opinion the best option.
A big part of the game lays dead and some people might loose interest after some time. With unlock all they can explore the game further on and come back to the level they couldn't solve before. (And they will, because that level will haunt them in their dreams! I know it from myself!)
Now they can see the pack in all it's glory and save the frustraiting part for the end.
But don't leave out the frustraiting part, because as explained above it is often the best one when you have beaten it!

At the end of this post a little quote from me I said to Simon at our meet up as we spoke about this topic (translated):

"Frustraition at it's core, if you are too dumb at this point to get the solution, but that is one of the main point of the game"