Exploders in Lix, with/without fling/timing?

[Clam]

This has boiled down rather nicely.

I think the ease of execution with untimed bombers is worth the inconsistency between modes. To make the difference really explicit, you could have the length of the timer as part of the symbol (5' in MP, 0' in SP).

Removing the timer from fling-bombers hasn't been done yet AFAIK, but I can only imagine it being even more helpful than for regular bombers

[Proxima]

To make the difference really explicit, you could have the length of the timer as part of the symbol (5' in MP, 0' in SP).

What on earth would be the point of a bomber with a five-minute timer? 

[namida]

Heh, I'm sure I could think of some wacky gimmicky use for it...

[Simon]

I would like to make both exploders untimed in singleplayer, keep all exploders timed in multiplayer.

It's much more efficient and pleasant to have no timing in singleplayer. There is some consistency here, too.

This needs a decision within the upcoming days. I.e., if you're really concerned about this decision, now would be a good time.

Skippable background {
I tried to keep the releases within the past month backwards compatible. Anyone with 2015-01 or newer should have been able to netplay together.

I screwed up, and nukes aren't transmitted properly between 2015-01 and 2015-06. Skills are transmitted fine. When people all have 2015-06-xx, they can play together again.

The obvious fix is to make people update to 2015-06. Even if I found the bug, one group of people had to update anyway -- either the old version users, or the new version users.

To make the update enticing, I would like to put due physics changes into this update. A big change is timed/untimed exploders.
}

-- Simon

[namida]

While not 100% consistent, that option at least makes sense. Bombers, particularly the fling bombers, are very OP in multiplayer due to the instantaneous destruction of a relatively large area compared to other destructive skills. Putting a timer on them nerfs that a bit. On the other hand, in singleplayer, you're not reacting to anything that isn't consistent every time you play (assuming you play it the same way or use a replay), so making them timed doesn't nerf them, it just annoys the player.

One thing I may suggest is modifying the icon slightly in multiplayer, put a stopwatch or something like that which would hint at the timed nature.

[Simon]

Yes, icon design is the next thing, and it's important. I didn't want to go here before making the above decision.

-- Simon

[Ramon]

I'm in favor of untimed exploders and bombers in Single Player. And yes, a better distinction between exploder and flingbomber icons would be grand too, maybe we could start gathering ideas.

[Proxima]

Does this mean it will continue to be possible to have both exploders and bombers in the same level?

If this change is made, I would like to modify Halfway Down the Stairs to give a runner instead of a jumper, all else remaining the same. The runner isn't particularly useful, but it means the level continues to have 12 different skills.

Simon has argued that my timed-bomber levels are still playable after this change, so I'm happy for them to be left as-is.

[ccexplore]

Does this mean it will continue to be possible to have both exploders and bombers in the same level?

The idea to not allow both in the same level was brought up on another thread that discusses displayed order of skills in the toolbar (idea to expand from 12 slots to 14 but most slots always dedicated to one particular skill type).  On that thread it sounded like we are leaning more towards not allowing both in same level, though technically I think it can still be supported/tolerated under that vision even if very strongly discouraged.

Not sure whether Simon's immediate-next update will have that as well or merely just making all exploders untimed.

[Simon]

Only one type of exploder per level: This is already in the current release. I didn't expect there to be levels that use both.

Proxima: Will change Halfway down the stairs as you have described. I recommend you to post an updated version to the pack thread, in addition. This way, the change won't be reverted later, when geoo does maintainance work on the pack.

Your bomber-timing levels: Yeah, they don't seem trivial to me at all without timing. :-)

-- Simon

[geoo]

While it was still an open question in the topic regarding the 14 skill panel, Simon doesn't want to keep supporting having both bombers at the same time (or esoteric skill like burner, shrugger, stunner for that matter), not even as a hidden text editor only option (which esoteric skills were until now). Only a few levels are affected, but complain now if you feel strongly about this change.

Simon: Halfway down the stairs has both bombers, so there'll have to be more changes than the one Proxima just indicated. There's a variety of solutions that works with just 1 bomber though.

Not sure how/if NaOH's burner level can be adapted (it seems like replacing the burners with bombers might work EDIT: confirmed). Panic Attack can be adapted to use only 1 kind of bomber, I'm pretty sure.

Apart from these, as far as I'm aware only a bunch of silly late-night levels will be gone.

[ccexplore]

Wow, that was quite a long chat between you and Simon on IRC (I had to stop reading halfway for lack of time), didn't realize you are that passionate for keeping the status quo.

I think deep down I feel exactly the same as you did on IRC, but at the same time realize that of all recent change proposals from Simon (aka "cullings"), this is probably already lowest on impact to existing levels and the overall gameplay.  The expounded benefits are reasonable even if not directly applicable to me, and to some extent backed by the official franchise (ie. IIRC every game except Lemmings 2 stick with one dedicated slot for each skill).

[Simon]

Random properties of the upcoming implementation:

Replays won't record (change active skill in the skillbar) anymore. Instead, each assignment is augmented with information about the assigned skill. This makes the skillbar solely part of the GUI, like fast-forward. Playing back a replay will not change skills in the panel. Changing skills in the panel will not interrupt a playback.

I have written and tested backwards compatibility for older replays. Exploder assignments in older singleplayer replays will be moved forward in time. When playing back such an old singleplayer replay, the untimed exploder makes a crater at the same position as when played back in the currently released Lix versions.

An exploder assignment in a replay doesn't carry information about whether the exploder is timed or not. This is inferred by the number of players.

Exploder mass-assignments from the nuke are untimed in singleplayer, timed in multiplayer.

I am making a longer animation for the non-fling exploder. I'll show sprites when it's done. The exploder will stand still while going through the anim, as before. Thus, the crater is at the same position as when played back in the current Lix version. The explosion will happen a few frames later.

Exploders in mid-air will not go through the anim, but explode instantly. This is also unlike the current version.

From the new anim, it's less obvious that exploders can be assigned in mid-air. We have to think about this.

-- Simon

[namida]

An exploder assignment in a replay doesn't carry information about whether the exploder is timed or not. This is inferred by the number of players.

This sounds like a recipe for disaster. Perhaps a better suggestion is to always record their position as if they were untimed (or as if they were timed; the important thing is being consistent, not which option you pick) and have the game adjust as nessecary, since it seems you've already figured how to properly adjust for timing or lack thereof.

I am making a longer animation for the non-fling exploder. I'll show sprites when it's done. The exploder will stand still while going through the anim, as before. Thus, the crater is at the same position as when played back in the current Lix version. The explosion will happen a few frames later.

This is also potentially going to cause issues, particularly if other lixes pass through at the same time.

[Simon]

An exploder assignment in a replay doesn't carry information about whether the exploder is timed or not. This is inferred by the number of players.

This sounds like a recipe for disaster. [...] always record their position as if they were untimed

I'm willing to solve this in a different way.

Reasoning for own suggestion: Replays have always stored the recording game's version. The game knows the rules of older versions. Upon loading a replay, if the replay is old, it's silently forward-converted. The file remains untouched. At this time, the game knows exactly whether or not to shift the assignment.

Should the rules change again, the replay forward convertor will grow some more moss, because it will be deciding between several different rules. The moss will grow all in one single function that's called once at replay loading.

About storing exploding time: I'm using replay data both for replays and for networking games. I'd like to keep this for simplicity. The assignment carries information about directional force. Assignments with the false directional force aren't carried out when replaying. Storing directional force is good for networked team games. If we store the time of explosion instead of assignment, several assumptions of the running game break, and need special cases.

Another idea is to store time of the assignment, but explicitly store timed/untimed with each assignment.

I am making a longer animation for the non-fling exploder. I'll show sprites when it's done. The exploder will stand still while going through the anim, as before. Thus, the crater is at the same position as when played back in the current Lix version. The explosion will happen a few frames later.

This is also potentially going to cause issues, particularly if other lixes pass through at the same time.

Yes, it's a physics change and may break some replays. This is accepted. Level pack managers can batch-verify their replay collection. There will be a WIP release before inflicting the change on everyone, to see whether the new anim is worth the break.

-- Simon