Global rule debates, what engines to allow

[Wafflem]

I'd also like to discuss something else - the contests so far have allowed Lemmix (and by extension, DOS Lemmings, since these two are pretty much compatible with each other), NeoLemmix, Lemmini and SuperLemmini (or some subset of those four). Where possible, how do people feel about also accepting Lix in future contests?

There should be a poll on that. One thing about Lix is that you can play Lemmix and Lemmini levels on there, as long as you place the files of the official styles in the Lix folder. Another consideration is that not everyone has played Lix, so they may not be familiar with the Lix skills like the runner and jumper, bombers that blast back Lix that are in the vicinity of the blast radius, and mechanics such as pixel-perfect steel areas and Lix fainting for a brief moment when falling down from a certain height.

[namida]

The mechanics differences can be said about any engine, really. NeoLemmix and SuperLemmini also have the pixel-perfect steel areas (heck, due to autosteel they don't even have to be straight-edged; no idea if Lix is the same in this regard), and NeoLemmix also has extra skills.

I wasn't aware Lix can play Lemmini levels, actually. It currently can't handle NeoLemmix levels, not sure about SuperLemmini.

Let's put a poll up, then...

[Wafflem]

I saw that Proxima added the DoveLems (a Lemmini-based Fangame) levels to Lix, so Lemmini levels are indeed playable on Lix.

Some things to consider:
Even if you play the Lemmix/Lemmini levels directly on Lix, the intended solution may be affected, due to that Lix faint before getting up when falling from a certain height, and that Lix does not have one-way arrows.

[Simon]

For contests, you should play each level on its author's game. You want comparable replays.

Loading levels from other games is purely for convenience. That has no impact here.

Whenever you broaden the set of allowed games, you require all entrants to become familiar with all games.

-- Simon

[namida]

Alright so, given the relative lack of interest in this contest - which may just be the format, mind you - I've thought about revising how closing entries should work for future contests.

Just to be clear, this is just an idea at this point. Whether it becomes the new system will depend on feedback, of course.

My idea is to have the entries closing based on a few different criteria, something along the following lines:
1. Entries will never close sooner than *insert date here* (generally about a week from the opening of the contest), overriding all other rules
2. Entries close immediately when X number of entries have been received
3. If at least (X / 2) entries have been received, and no further entries or revisions have been submitted for one week, entries will close
4. Regardless of number of entries, entries will close on *insert date here* (I'm thinking about 2 months from the opening of the contest; this is just a failsafe in case even (X / 2) isn't reached)

Obviously, there'll still be some absolute minimum that applies no matter what. My first thought is to make this "at least 3 entries", but a possible alternative is "at least 2 entries, with second place only receiving prizes if there are at least 3 entries".

[Nepster]

Alright so, given the relative lack of interest in this contest - which may just be the format, mind you - I've thought about revising how closing entries should work for future contests.

In my case, it is purely the time frame that prevents me from participating. As mentioned before, I simply don't want to destroy another ones efforts, because I didn't find the time to create a proper level and therefore had to hand in some mediocre terrain/objects+skills.

2. Entries close immediately when X number of entries have been received

I am totally against this, as it defeats the intent of level contests: We do want to have as many participants (and new levels) as possible, so excluding someone just because several others were faster is nonsense. (Sorry for the strong words, but I am really passionate about not having this rule).

I have no real preferences among the other rules, but would like to keep the rule as simple as possible. I could actually live with a slight modification of the current rule like "3 weeks + 2 additional weeks if less than 4 participants".

PS @namida: Why haven't we seen any level of yours in the level contests so far?

[namida]

You raise a good point there. My thought was setting said "X" higher than the number of entries we usually get, but perhaps a better idea is to scratch that one, and just have the "one week (or some other time frame) since last new / updated entry", as well as a longer-than-nessecary "final" deadline.

As for none of my levels - well, obviously the rules don't prohibit me from entering (only from getting prizes), so I could do so. Due to the shared-winner nature of this contest I probably won't, but you're right, I should probably enter levels in future ones just for the fun of it.

[Nepster]

As for none of my levels - well, obviously the rules don't prohibit me from entering (only from getting prizes), so I could do so. Due to the shared-winner nature of this contest I probably won't, but you're right, I should probably enter levels in future ones just for the fun of it.

I don't get the point of "contest host cannot get prizes": With the topic of the contest chosen by preferences of forum members and the winner chosen by poll, there are not much possibilities for rigging a contest (well, at least not more than for any other participant ).

[namida]

Theoretically, I could just edit the poll results through the database. Of course, it should be quite clear by now that I wouldn't do such a thing, but still. Part of that is also the fact that there's little point in me giving a prize to myself. Perhaps the only one that may stand out (since on principle I won't just do it "because I can") is when the advertising option is offered; obviously I can't really "give myself" $10; I get to pick the contest rules anyway (if no one else has that as a prize), and I can add something to NeoLemmix any time I feel like it. xD

So, in a way, it's kind of so that two people (or however many) still get prizes, I guess?

[Nepster]

And I could create ten new accounts myself and let them vote for my own level .

... obviously I can't really "give myself" $10; I get to pick the contest rules anyway ...

But you can prevent having to give $10 to someone else . And up to now, you picked the contest rules, that people showed the most interest in. So theoretically you could use this prize to choose an otherwise absolutely unpopular topic without making others mad at you...

So, in a way, it's kind of so that two people (or however many) still get prizes, I guess?

No, prizes should go to the most popular levels. So if you get one of the prizes yourself, this should be seen by others as an incentive to learn what made your level better and then try harder next time. And the prizes don't seem to be very important to people here anyway.

[namida]

And I could create ten new accounts myself and let them vote for my own level .

Yes, but that'd be more noticable when there's suddenly 10 accounts doing nothing but voting for the same level. Assuming that something gave me reason to go digging into the database to check their level voting habits, that is. xD

But you can prevent having to give $10 to someone else . And up to now, you picked the contest rules, that people showed the most interest in. So theoretically you could use this prize to choose an otherwise absolutely unpopular topic without making others mad at you...

Those are valid points, I guess...

[Wafflem]

And the prizes don't seem to be very important to people here anyway.

The $10 and the new NeoLemmix gimmicks are important to me, mainly because I don't want the two gimmick slots in the NeoLemmix Editor to be left blank should NeoLemmix ever be finalized, and the $10 could be used for more important things like donating to charity (which I did for Contest #2).

[Wafflem]

Since you are the one who uploads the levels in the database on your website, when a contest is currently running, is it okay if I send a level pack to you with the contest level in advance (best during the Playing/Voting stage), but then you won't upload it until after the contest is over?

[namida]

I'm fine with that.

[namida]

Alright, some things I'm considering for the next contest (and possibly future ones, depending on how well it works out), based on existing feedback etc - feel free to discuss these, as they aren't "finalized" until the contest begins.

1. Lix
If there is nothing inherent in the criteria that would prevent a Lix level from meeting it, single-player Lix levels will be allowed in addition to Lemmix / NeoLemmix / Lemmini / SuperLemmini. In the case that rules make reference to the "original 8 skills" in any way, the non-flinging bomber is the one that counts as part of this. Unless contest rules state otherwise, Lix-exclusive features/skills are permitted. Multi-player Lix levels are not permitted, unless the contest rules specifically state otherwise.

2. Revision of levels
Revised version of the levels will be allowed during the playing phase, and the playing phase will most likely be extended to account for this. How this will work is that during the playing phase,  there'll be several extra "deadlines", and at each of these, if updated levels have been received, they'll be posted (along with an announcement that updated versions are available). You can submit as many updates as you like until the final update deadline has passed (which will be at least a few days before the voting phase starts); the newest one prior to the deadline will be uploaded as each deadline passes. Once the final deadline has passed, no further updates can be submitted - the level will have to enter the voting phase as-is, though as usual you're free to update it again once the contest has ended.

3. Custom graphics, VGASPECs
This is more just a change in formatting than anything else; but from now on, it will not be explicitly mentioned that these are allowed. Instead, it will only be explicitly mentioned if they're not allowed - if nothing is mentioned about them, assume they're fine. The rule still stands that if using a custom graphic set, you must provide a copy of it with your entry, unless it's included by default with the engine (eg. if you make a NeoLemmix level using one of the Lemmings Plus graphic sets, you don't need to include that, as NeoLemmix includes the LP sets by default).

4. Closing dates
There'll be a minimum closing date, which will be a similar timeframe to in the past (about two weeks). However, on top of this, even after this date passes, entries will not close until 72 hours since the last entry was received (or one week since the last entry was received, if there are less than four entries so far).

5. Minimum number of entries
Entry period will no longer extend if the contest has not reached four entries. The contest will immediately be cancelled if only one or two entries have been received. If three entries have been received however, it will proceed as normal, except only first place will get a prize (instead of both first and second).