Possible feature: Achievements

[namida]

What do people think about the idea of adding an achievements system to NeoLemmix?

Obviously, there wouldn't be any online database - it'd just be a fun thing that's kept track of in the save file and players of packs can aim for. Of course, it'd be supported in custom packs, as well as me adding some of my choosing to the Lemmings Plus games and Doomsday Lemmings (and perhaps we can look at some community-chosen ones to add to the NeoLemmix players of the official games too).

These could be things like "Save 100% on level x", "Complete level x without using builders", "Find all the secret levels" etc, as well as the more-generic ones for completing each rank.

Let me know what you think about this feature; it's one I considered in the past (in fact, originally I thought about having it debut in Lemmings Plus Omega, but never got around to making it) but didn't implement yet.



Now that this feature is confirmed, I'd like to start gathering suggestions for achievements for the official games. Feel free to make suggestions either in this topic or by PM. Please take into account the limitations of the achievements feature. The primary one is that achievements take the form of challenges on a single level, there can't be any that span multiple levels in any way. It is, however, possible for a single level to have more than one achievement related to it. That aside, the criteria for achievements must be among the following (it is possible to mix-and-match more than one of these in a single achievement):
> Saving a certian number of lemmings
> Completing the level in under a certain time (this can involve seconds and even frames, rather than just whole minutes)
> Limiting the quantity used of a specific skill
> Limiting the total number of skills used
> Keeping the release rate within a specified range

Regarding Copycat Lemmings, I will first contact Essman to see if he'd like to pick them himself, and if not, I'll take suggestions here for that too. EDIT: Essman has said that while he'd like to come up with them himself, he's also happy for some community input. Thus, I'll take suggestions here, but it'll be ultimately Essman's decision which ones do or don't make it into the game.

Remember - for obvious reasons, the challenge must be possible in NeoLemmix. Just because it's possible in DOS / traditional Lemmix doesn't mean it's possible in NeoLemmix; if it doesn't rely on glitches it's probably possible, but this isn't always true, either due to subtle mechanics differences, or differences in the levels themself (for example, the Orig and H94 levels in NeoLemmix are based off the Amiga versions, not the DOS versions; and a lot of levels have further minor modifications to make use of NeoLemmix's capabilities). Some that are very challenging under DOS may also end up being trivial under NeoLemmix, for example one that was suggested was "Complete Taxing 30 with no more than 20 diggers", which would be quite challenging under DOS / traditional Lemmix, but it can be done with only two diggers very easily in NeoLemmix.

Achievements may be rated as Bronze, Silver or Gold, depending on their difficulty. However, let's get a collection of suggestions before we decide on ranking them, or on which ones to actually use. The (virtually-)direct-ports of official games will also get achievements for simply beating their final levels, but these aside, none should be simply "Beat level X" without further requirements.

Original Lemmings
Save 100% on Fun 8 without builders
Save 100% on Fun 10 without floaters, miners or diggers
Save 100% on Fun 27 in under 1 minute
Complete Tricky 11 without builders
Save 99% on Tricky 23
Save 100% on Tricky 25
Complete Mayhem 3 with only 4 skills
Complete Mayhem 13 with no more than 6 skills
Complete Mayhem 25 with no more than 5 builders
Complete Mayhem 26 without blockers
Complete Mayhem 30

Oh No! More Lemmings!
Complete Havoc 20

Xmas Lemmings 91/92

Holiday Lemmings 94
Complete Hail 16
Complete Blitz 16

Covox

Prima

Extra

Copycat

[Wafflem]

This is a feature I was also thinking! I was also going to suggest that but I wasn't sure when the right time was.

This will be an excellent idea and will really give a lot of motivation for challenge.

Ideas: (this was originally short, but I couldn't resist my ideas, so...)

General:
1. Complete this level in X time.
2. Fail a level X times.
3. Press "Esc" to quit levels 100 times (this can be done on any level, e.g. press Esc on Taxing 5 "The Prisoner" 50 times, "Esc" on Mayhem 24 "All Or Nothing" 25 times, "Esc" on Tricky 23 "From the Boundary Line" 25 times).
4. Beat 10 levels consecutively without pressing 'R' or failing the level.
5. Beat every level in the game consecutively without pressing 'R' or failing the level (too extreme, I would really not recommend this one, it just occurred to my mind).
6. Complete all levels of the Dirt style/Column style/Martian style/ etc.
7. Complete all levels with Cheat Mode off.
8. Complete any level in a different colored background.
9. Complete levels with as few builders as possible.

Official Lemmings:
1. Complete Tame 13 "Thunder Lemmings" with just one builder
2. Find the backroute for Mayhem 17 "Stepping Stones"
3. Use only one digger in Fun 1 "Just Dig!"
4. Beat Fun 8 "Not as complicated as it looks" without using the blocker at all.

Lemmings Plus:
1. Find all secret levels.
2. Find the secret level to Dodgy 18 "United States Method"
3. Beat all gimmick levels in an LP game.
4. Unlock all secret levels in the LPIII Bonus Pack.
5. Beat all the Fierce levels (okay, bland suggestion, but do consider that Fierce is the hardest rank in all of the Lemmings Plus games)
6. Complete Breezy 21 "Triplicity" with 45 lemmings.
7. The lowest number of bombers in Cheeky 13 "Above the Forests"
8. Complete all levels in Lemmings Plus Flashbacks (bland suggestion again, but these are the 32 best levels of Lemmings Plus I-III, so it would be quite an achievement for someone new to Lemmings Plus to complete them all)
9. Complete all locked exit puzzles in LPIII/LPIIIB/LPO (sorry, couldn't resist suggesting that)
10. Beat Medi 16 "The Oddstack" in under 3 minutes (bringing back the V7 version of Medi 16)
11. Do not press "R" at all in Rush 3 "Floater Frenzy: Perfect Edition"
12. Complete all pre-V7 Levels in LPI.

NeoLemmix Skills Tutorial Pack:
1. Beat "Maybe not JUST Walk" without using any walkers.
2. Beat "Back-Stroke" without using any swimmers.

Doomsday Lemmings
1. Beat Outbreak 4 "Making a Run For It" without taking the upper route.
2. Save all lemmings from being zombified in Outbreak 3 "Undead Lockdown".

How will the player be informed of an achievement? By dialog box? By something similar to a post-text screen (the player is informed of the unlocked achievement after either failing or succeeding the level)

[GigaLem]

Im torn on this one i can't really decide
i like this idea but how are you find secret levels becuase well
in the system.dat edition you have an option to put in secret level the question is how are you susposed to know the codes to them?
but however i wanna see how this plays out

[exit]

This is a great idea.

Here's some more achievement ideas:
Get 100% on 25 levels
Get 100% on 50 levels
etc.
Beat Lemmings Plus DOS Project
Beat Lemmings Plus II
Beat Lemmings Plus III
etc.(any packs released for neolemmix could be included here)
Get the maximum amount(that's known) that can be saved on EVERY SINGLE LEVEL

For some of these you would need a system similar to Lemmini's/Superlemmini's that would include all of the packs, and would have the maximum save amount.
You would also want to possibly include the original games with it, if you were to do the above.

Anyways, very great idea!

[GigaLem]

An achievement for
- Getting the max % possible on every level
- Beat every secret level
- Beat a staff's time solution on a level

[namida]

Im torn on this one i can't really decide
i like this idea but how are you find secret levels becuase well
in the system.dat edition you have an option to put in secret level the question is how are you susposed to know the codes to them?
but however i wanna see how this plays out

Well, generally secret levels are accessed by a secret level trigger (the small 8x8 solid color block objects in each graphic set). You set the S value to the rank and L value to the level number of the secret level. (eg: If Taxing 31 was a secret level in Orig, you'd set the S value to 3 and the L value to 31)

However, you can indeed hide them by code - though obviously, make sure there's some way for people to figure out the code. In this case, the best way to find the code would be to enable accessing secret levels via cheats, then use a cheat code to reach the level. The code will be displayed on the failed screen, as always. You can then turn the option to allow reaching secret levels via cheats off after you've got the code (or leave it on if you prefer).

It isn't possible with Flexi to have a set code for the secret level (in the way that "Trivia Time!" from LPIII Bonus has). That was a hardcoded thing specifically for that pack.

I'm considering adding more ways to unlock secret levels in future versions.



On the subject of ones for existing games, the only one I definitely have in mind for an official game is 100% on Tricky 25 "Cascade".

I don't plan to make a "combined" player, so there won't be any cross-game achievements.

One for completing each rank is something I'll definitely include by default (possibly excluding, eg. the 2P ranks in Orig / OhNo).

I'd like to stay away from really pointless ones, like quitting a level via Esc 100 times.

Likewise, the "no upper route" one for Doomsday Lemmings Outbreak 4 is probably a bit complex to include while still allowing flexibility to enough of an extent for people to make their own packs. It'd probably be limited to things like "find / beat a certian level", "complete X levels", "find a secret level", "beat a level under a certain time", "beat a level without a certain skill or with no more than X of a certain skill", etc.

Also - the 1-builder one for Tame 13, I don't know if that's possible on NeoLemmix. IIRC, it relies on the blocker-pushing-into-terrain glitch, which is fixed in NeoLemmix (as is virtually everything considered a "glitch", apart from direct drop which I've intentionally left unfixed).

[namida]

Seems like enough people would like this idea - and of course, it's not like it's an obligatory feature, so those who don't could of course just ignore it.

So... let's get on to discussing some ideas for some for the main games! (I'll probably come up with them of my own accord for my packs, and I'll discuss with Essman (if he's interested in giving input) for Copycat Lemmings.)

We'll worry about the large packs (Orig, OhNo, H94 and Extra) for now. I'm thinking we go for 30 of them per game, with a seperation of:

Bronze: 20
Silver: 6
Gold: 3
Platinum: 1, which would always be "get all the other achievements"

(Also, I'm thinking of calling them "Talismans", to keep with the Lemmings theme (a L2 reference).)

I'll list my ideas here; feel free to say if you don't agree with any of them (whether it's the achievement as a whole, or just how it's ranked and/or named), as well as suggest others. Some of them I'll need names for, even if I've gotten an idea. For now, I've just come up with some for Orig.

And for the record - this won't be a V1.29n feature, so no rush to organise them.

Disregard this list.
It was put together at a time when this feature was still nothing more than a "possible distant future idea", and thus does not to any degree take into account how the feature ultimately ended up working. Those which are suitable have been added to the new list, which can be found in the first post.

Orig
Bronze
"First Steps" - Complete Fun 1
"Lemming Licence" - Complete Fun 7
"Having Fun?" - Complete all of Fun
???? - Complete all of Tricky
???? - Complete all of Taxing
???? - Complete all of Mayhem
"Lonely Lemming" - Complete all the 2P levels
"Perfect!" - Save 100% on a level that doesn't require it
"Well That Was Pointless" - Complete Fun 6 and Tricky 17, or Fun 18 and Taxing 19 (pairs of levels that have virtually no difference under NeoLemmix)
"Falling Down" - Complete Fun 13, Tricky 2, Taxing 30 and Mayhem 11 (the four "We All Fall Down" levels)
"Oooh, Fancy!" - Beat Fun 22, Tricky 14, Taxing 15 and Mayhem 22 (the four special graphics levels)

Silver
"Cascade Master" - Save 100% on Tricky 25
???? - Solve Mayhem 25 with only 5 builders

Gold
???? - Complete every level in Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem
???? - Save 98% (if possible on NeoLemmix; I'll have to check) on Tricky 23
"Superhero!" - Complete Mayhem 3 with only four skills

Platinum
???? - Get every other achievement

[GigaLem]

Truly Awesome - Get 100% on Taxing 18 without using builders
Feeling Special - Beat all special levels
Lots of Fun - Complete fun
Tricks of the trade - Complete tricky
A Taxing Taxi - Complete Taxing
Mayhem Stopper - Complete Mayhem
Soak up the sun - Complete sunsoft
A master's Presents - Complete Present
Blast processing - Complete Genesis
You are Red E - Complete the PSP levels
Extras don't go to waste - Complete the Extra levels
Christmas Saver - Complete all the Xmas lemmings level 91-94

[namida]

100% on Taxing 18 without builders isn't possible in either Lemmix or NeoLemmix. In fact, completing it without builders full stop isn't possible in either version. Under regular Lemmix it can be beaten with only 1 builder (but you need more for 100%), in NeoLemmix you need far more than this due to the absence of steel glitches.

I do like the idea of one for beating the 4 special levels.

[Proxima]

I'll list my ideas here; feel free to say if you don't agree with any of them (whether it's the achievement as a whole, or just how it's ranked and/or named), as well as suggest others. Some of them I'll need names for, even if I've gotten an idea. For now, I've just come up with some for Orig.

I don't agree with separate achievements for completing all of Fun 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. It's good to have an easy achievement for starters to give players confidence, but spending seven out of thirty on the tutorial levels is overkill.

I also don't agree with "Save 100% on a level that doesn't require it" -- this is really trivial on Fun 5 and most players will get it the first time they play the level. Instead, I'd have one for "Save 100% on 10 levels that don't require it" or some other arbitrary number.

Other suggestions... these are kind of like a "lite" version of challenges, i.e. it's okay to suggest ones that the experienced players here would find easy, but new players might find stimulating. I enjoy thinking of these.

100% Fun 8 without builders
100% using the hidden exit in Fun 23
100% Fun 27 in under a minute
100% Fun 28 with no lemmings touching the long floor at the bottom
Solve Mayhem 25 with five builders

[ccexplore]

Proxima, it may be worth mentioning that at least from my experience with actual commercial games that have achievements, some of them can often be pretty inane. (I tend to look at it as "cheap unimaginative way to artificially pad the game's replayability", though to be fair it doesn't have to be like that.)

I do think having one per each level of Fun 1-7 might be somewhat repetitive though, it would probably be more than sufficient to do one for completing Fun 1, and another for completing the entire set of tutorial levels (ie. all of 1-7).  On the other hand, because each such level highlights a specific skill, it does open up to naming each corresponding achievement in a fun way based on the skill featured, so perhaps it's not that bad from a "fun" perspective (how-ever you want to look at what "fun" means in the context of achievements).

Also worthwhile to mention that sometimes achievements are defined in terms of failures rather than successes, imagine things like "nuked the same level 10 times", or even one for missing the save requirement by 1% or 1 lemming (bonus if it's on a level where this may actually be nontrivial to achieve in a way that doesn't involve bailing out the level early).  Yes, this is definitely one place where it can start slipping into inane territory so I'm not suggesting it as necessarily a good idea, just throwing it out there.   Another style of achievements that are often featured are the "do something so-and-so many times" that doesn't directly tie to solving levels and such.  Definitely very much in inane territory for that one, but who am I to judge how people want to play?

[keiya]

Well that was pointless - Beat two levels rendered identical by Neolemmix changes. (Fun 6 - A Task for Blockers and Bombers and Tricky 17 - Diet Lemmingaid, or Fun 18 - Let's Block and Blow and Taxing 19 - Bomboozal come to mind)

[namida]

^ Heh, I actually somewhat like that idea. xD

[Nepster]

I do think having one per each level of Fun 1-7 might be somewhat repetitive though, it would probably be more than sufficient to do one for completing Fun 1, and another for completing the entire set of tutorial levels (ie. all of 1-7)...

I would actually prefer to have even less achievements of the type "Complete ...", i.e. having only one for "Fun 1-7", "All of Fun", "All 120 levels" and perhaps 2-3 special ones. As Proxima said, it is good to have some easy achievements, but I would feel cheated if I got more than 20% of the achievements simply by completing the game.

?? ?? - Save 98% (if possible on NeoLemmix; I'll have to check) on Tricky 23

I think even 97% would make for a good achievement.

I totally second all of Proxima's suggestions for "lite" versions of challenges. Here are some more:
- Fun 10: 100% without floaters, miners or diggers
- Tricky 11: without builders (the level can be replaced, if you find a better one for this kind of achievement)
- Taxing 18: 100% without using the direct drop glitch
- Taxing 30: with only 20 diggers (instead of the current "Falling Down" achievement suggestion)
- Mayhem 13: with only 6 skills
- "Perfect Rendezvouz" Mayhem 30: save 100% (not because this is terrible interesting, but just because it feels like an achievement to save every single lemming on the final level)
- "Karoshi Master": Solve a level while killing lemmings in at least 5 different ways (e.g. on Taxing 2 you have 2 kinds of traps, drowning in water, splatting, bombing, falling out of the screen, nuking/out of time)
- "SuperLemming": Solve all levels with the Superlemming gimmick on 

[namida]

Unless you change that last one to "SuperLemming + Frenzy", it doesn't really do much in NeoLemmix (or even regular Lemmix) due to the fine-control features...