Timed vs. Instant Bombers

[Wafflem]

With the instant bomber change that occurred in NeoLemmix and the Lemmings Plus games, it changed the Lemmings gameplay by a lot.

I have not seen a lot of opinions on this one yet. Would you rather have a gameplay where bombers count down from 5 seconds, or would you rather they explode instantly?

Spoilered to avoid biases:

Spoiler

Instant bombers. They take away the frustration of timing bombers and allow for tons of puzzle potential (Cheeky 13 "Above the Forests" of Lemmings Plus II and "Drive On Up" from Step 5 Level 2 of my second pack being examples). With timed bombers, they make levels like Tricky 16 "Luvly Jubly,"  Taxing 19 "Bomboozal" and Crazy 3 "Many Lemmings Make Level Work" very difficult and frustrating.

I've noticed that SuperLemmini and Lix still use timed bombers; the old bomber/blocker tutorial in Lix especially frustrated me since (IIRC) the level is quite big and has a lot of rough-edged terrain, and I had to keep waiting until each Lix exploded. I haven't seen the new one yet.

[namida]

In some ways, I'd say instant bombers would be an unfair advantage in multiplayer. Thus, it makes sense for Lix to keep them.

On the other hand, I don't see why SuperLemmini doesn't at least offer the option, but I guess that's up to Tsyu. There are some levels that are a bit more subtle than the ones you mention that make use of instant bombers, for example...

Spoiler

Fierce 6

And let's not even start on how much of a royal pain in the ass Cunning 4 would be with timed bombers...

(Although instant bombers is the default and recommended behaviour, NeoLemmix does actually offer an option for timed bombers when building Flexi-based packs, by the way. Back when LemMain was used to build System.DAT, this was a hidden option that could only be found by asking about it or examining the source code, but NeoLemmix Editor doesn't hide it in any way.)

[Simon]

Instant in singleplayer, delayed in multiplayer.

-- Simon

[Clam]

Bomber-timing levels are the perennial pet-hate of non-LFers - see any walkthrough or video series of the original games. Definitely want untimed for singleplayer. It might even make fling-bomber puzzles a whole lot nicer


Multiplayer, naturally, is somewhat trickier (but not that much, it turns out):

Timed bombers are powerful but hard to control - that balance is essential. The instantaneous removal of terrain is faster than any digging skill will allow, but in the chaos of multiplayer it probably won't explode where you want it to, even if you're a highly skilled player. Removing the timer gives too much control, and then the other skills can't match its power. With knockback, both aspects are magnified - now you're actively redirecting the other lemmings, rather than just altering the terrain they walk on.

Instant bombers won't work in Lix multiplayer (especially with knockback) unless you limit their count severely, or restrict their assignment to walkers only (which is a huge change and may not even help much in this situation). Trap a bunch of lix in a pit above your goal (even a long way above!), and no one can stop you from blowing a path all the way down. The loss of lemmings through exploding is a small price for the large cluster that you kill or steal.

Once upon a time, I actually suggested L2-style bombers as a means of balancing the power of blockers. (The L2 "Bomber" is the same as an untimed knockback exploder, but without killing the lemming.) Thankfully, a batter solution was found . Now the blocker-removing function of bombers hardly matters any more.

[ccexplore]

Hmm, excellent point.  I'm just a little curious that I don't recall it ever being brought up in discussions on multiplayer Clones (which only has [effectively] instantaneous bombers).  Though I suppose you can argue there are more fundamental issues to argue about there.  Or maybe I just missed it being brought up over there.  Or they specifically crafted the levels to avoid/minimize this issue.

[Simon]

The cost of the lost lem weighs stronger in Clones, not sure if it's enough.

Clones features more on controlling individual lems. The initial amount of lems is lower, around 50 in most levels, not something between 80 and 200. Fighting to save one extra lem is common, Clustering is rare and disadvantageous.

-- Simon

[geoo]

I found bombers in clones quite overpowered, at least if used against some sort of cluster. The hole is huge, everyone falls down instead of being scattered (even current builders fall despite no knockback), and if you had multiple saboteurs you can easily keep going using spinners even if they fell down.

Due to the instant terrain removal, I think it's better to have a countdown in multiplayer. For singleplayer, I agree that the countdown is a nuisance. It might add a bit variety to the game by allowing bomber timing levels, but the novelty wears out very fast and it becomes more of a nuisance. I mean imagine you now had timed diggers and builders...would that make the game more fun?

[keiya]

Instant bombers are preferable, but I don't think applying them to old levels the way NeoLemmix does is a good idea. It just rubs me the wrong way... despite hating bomber-timing levels.

[Clam]

Untimed bombers are wonderfully practical! Where bomber placement is important, with 5-second bombers you're probably doing several restarts per bomber to get the timing right.

The one thing that bothers me about untimed bombers is the cruelty. They die straight away when you click them, and if they're falling then it's instant - they don't even get to do the "oh no!"