Do I have to create difficult levels?

[Wafflem]

It looks like the levels I have seen so far in the Database and in Fangames are mostly difficult levels.

I'd love to create more levels (especially for NeoLemmix), but I don't think I can create levels that are beyond Tricky difficulty, and most definitely not close to namida's Fierce levels of LPIII. I was thinking of making a level for the first contest, but I felt it wouldn't be on par in terms of difficulty with the others' levels.

If you've played my first NeoLemmix pack, you'll see that a majority of my levels are multiple-approach levels. The closest I can get to difficult is "Red Wave" of my first pack; despite it having multiple solutions, it's still a hard level.

[namida]

Easy levels can still be good levels, if they're fun. Medi 6 is a good example of this - it's not that hard, but yet it's the most popular level in that pack, despite far more difficult levels existing in it.

[Proxima]

Multiple-approach levels can be very difficult: see for example "Labyrinth of Despair" in the Lix community set. So I don't believe that you can't make difficult levels. One approach, if you want to try making some harder levels, is to do what I did with "Labyrinth of Despair". I started with a Tricky-difficulty level (in this case, one of namida's) and played it, trying to minimise skill use and in particular use of the more versatile skills, like builders and miners. I found that (in the Lix version including the new skills) I could solve the level with 3 of each and only one lost, so I made that the requirement. (I continued to look for improvements, and later found a solution without walkers, and took them out. However, after two solvers found 100% solutions, in this case I chose not to require that, but obviously I could have done if I wanted to make it even harder.)

This approach works best with a large or complex level -- "Labyrinth of Despair" is complex because there are three hatches, one over a death drop, so in any solution there is a lot of work to do and a lot of choices as to how to do it.

Of course, as namida said, it's true that easy levels can be fun as well. For me, the criteria I just outlined often contribute to fun in an easier level -- there is no trivial solution; even though it's easy to see it can be solved, it's not obvious how best to go about it; there are choices to make and room to challenge yourself. (And indeed, the original version of "Labyrinth of Despair" did well in namida's popularity contest even though it wasn't the overall winner.)

[mobius]

you don't have to create difficult levels. At least one person [myself] but I know plenty others do besides the people who posted here enjoy levels that aren't head-bashing difficulty.

Lately I've been discovering levels of easier difficulty that are still tough. Some times multiple approach levels are more interesting because they can appear very tough. And tightening the level to remove backroutes can make the intended solution more obvious or quicker to find. I don't think I'm explaining this accurately. Anyway; t3tesla's levelset is a good example of this. Some of the levels I found very hard then turned out to have multiple [sometimes simple] solutions.

There are a lot of levels in the database which require some ridiculous precision and I'm personally against that. There's only a few occasions where I can still find a level enjoyable after having to try it 100 times to get something right. I know I'm guilty of making levels like this myself.

[Nepster]

The levels "Fallen" (Medi 6) and "Labyrinth of Despair" (original version) have two things in common:
1) They are of moderate difficulty with multiple solutions, while not being trivial (in the sense that you cannot just start doing anything and still complete the level)
2) All their solutions use a wide variety of skills (and not just builders for example).
I, too, love to play such levels. However I find it very difficult to design them myself (actually quite a bit harder than creating difficult levels). So I have huge respect for people creating such levels, even if they turn out to be "only of Tricky difficulty".

My guiding principle when creating level is to have fun myself. Whether other people will like the levels is secondary. True, other players will tell you that they do not like this, love that, hate whatever, ... But my advice would be not to be too concerned about such opinions, as long as you had fun yourself.

PS @DynaLem: I have trouble finding your NeoLemmix level pack. Could you please point out, where to get it?

[Wafflem]

Thanks everyone for your input!

Easy levels can still be good levels, if they're fun. Medi 6 is a good example of this - it's not that hard, but yet it's the most popular level in that pack, despite far more difficult levels existing in it.

That is what I was thinking too regarding easy levels. Medi 6 "Fallen" is kind of hard, but the fun value is added in the multiple tricks used n the level, and like many other levels, felt very rewarding for me when I solved the level.

Multiple-approach levels can be very difficult: see for example "Labyrinth of Despair" in the Lix community set. So I don't believe that you can't make difficult levels. One approach, if you want to try making some harder levels, is to do what I did with "Labyrinth of Despair". I started with a Tricky-difficulty level (in this case, one of namida's) and played it, trying to minimise skill use and in particular use of the more versatile skills, like builders and miners. I found that (in the Lix version including the new skills) I could solve the level with 3 of each and only one lost, so I made that the requirement. (I continued to look for improvements, and later found a solution without walkers, and took them out. However, after two solvers found 100% solutions, in this case I chose not to require that, but obviously I could have done if I wanted to make it even harder.)

This approach works best with a large or complex level -- "Labyrinth of Despair" is complex because there are three hatches, one over a death drop, so in any solution there is a lot of work to do and a lot of choices as to how to do it.

Of course, as namida said, it's true that easy levels can be fun as well. For me, the criteria I just outlined often contribute to fun in an easier level -- there is no trivial solution; even though it's easy to see it can be solved, it's not obvious how best to go about it; there are choices to make and room to challenge yourself. (And indeed, the original version of "Labyrinth of Despair" did well in namida's popularity contest even though it wasn't the overall winner.)

I've played some levels of Lix, and I did see that remake of Labyrinth of Despair. I completely agree that this is one of the best Tricky-difficulty levels because that level indeed has multiple solutions, but the solution is not so obvious right away. The level also made it to Lemmings Plus Flashbacks, for that reason.

Thanks for that tip on how to create a difficult level (solving with the minimum skills possible). I'll keep that in mind if I plan to make one.

you don't have to create difficult levels. At least one person [myself] but I know plenty others do besides the people who posted here enjoy levels that aren't head-bashing difficulty.

Lately I've been discovering levels of easier difficulty that are still tough. Some times multiple approach levels are more interesting because they can appear very tough. And tightening the level to remove backroutes can make the intended solution more obvious or quicker to find. I don't think I'm explaining this accurately. Anyway; t3tesla's levelset is a good example of this. Some of the levels I found very hard then turned out to have multiple [sometimes simple] solutions.

There are a lot of levels in the database which require some ridiculous precision and I'm personally against that. There's only a few occasions where I can still find a level enjoyable after having to try it 100 times to get something right. I know I'm guilty of making levels like this myself.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The stress in creating difficult levels is that backroutes may arise, and blocking them may either cause more backroutes or, as you said, reveal the intended solution. Difficult levels also take a very long time to create.

One of your levels in MobiLems (Friendly 30 "O Lemming where art thou?") is another excellent example of a multiple-approach level - it's a big level with four trapdoors multiple obstacles, but with lot of leeway in a huge time limit and 50-of-everything. The level works very well as the very last level of the rank - it feels more of a Tricky difficulty than a Fun difficulty, which is good because the level helps get the player prepared for the Flapdoodle levels.

The levels "Fallen" (Medi 6) and "Labyrinth of Despair" (original version) have two things in common:
1) They are of moderate difficulty with multiple solutions, while not being trivial (in the sense that you cannot just start doing anything and still complete the level)
2) All their solutions use a wide variety of skills (and not just builders for example).
I, too, love to play such levels. However I find it very difficult to design them myself (actually quite a bit harder than creating difficult levels). So I have huge respect for people creating such levels, even if they turn out to be "only of Tricky difficulty".

My guiding principle when creating level is to have fun myself. Whether other people will like the levels is secondary. True, other players will tell you that they do not like this, love that, hate whatever, ... But my advice would be not to be too concerned about such opinions, as long as you had fun yourself.

PS @DynaLem: I have trouble finding your NeoLemmix level pack. Could you please point out, where to get it?

Thanks especially for this advice on having fun. I'm working on my second level pack right now and I want my levels to generally be a mix of fun and challenging. The pack will make more use of NeoLemmix content than the first pack, so I'm experimenting with the features and trying to find way to have fun with them.

For my NeoLemmix pack, you can get it here: http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelpacks.html. However, I need to update this pack; Step 2 Level 2 "Glinda's World" has a major backroute that makes this level too easy. The other ones should be fine. The pack in general I would say is more of a Tricky difficulty (with two to three levels that may qualify beyond Tricky difficulty). There's also one secret level that uses a gimmick that has not been used in any of namida's levels yet.

Again, thanks everyone for your help! I'll keep your advice in mind as I work on my future levels.  Any other input will be welcome.

[namida]

Thanks for that tip on how to create a difficult level (solving with the minimum skills possible). I'll keep that in mind if I plan to make one.

This is a technique that I make very extensive use of too. While it was used to an extent with all my packs, it was especially used a lot in Lemmings Plus II and both bonus packs. In some cases, trying for the best result on "skills you can't live without" can give good ideas too.