Community Request: Find Backroutes!

[t3tesla]

I did contact t3tesla btw, but with the PM email notification system being down who knows if/when he'll realize it.

Sorry guys, I see the PM a bit late http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> I checked your replays.
These levels were created a long time ago (and some use glitches of the original lemmings). I remember some intended solution. Some of these levels looks very easy now.

Lemming in a situation:

On my original idea, a lemmings of the top-right hatch has to help lemmings from the left hatch. Nepster solution use that. But maybe there is backroutes.

Dangerzone: Nepster shows the intended solution. Attached with his message http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1107.msg23877#msg23877" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1107.msg23877#msg23877

Suicidal Tendencies: Yes, you save a climber and broke the level. On the intended solution, one lemmings from the right and one lemmings from the left climb the ice wall. But 2 climbers is clearly useless, one is enought.

ROCKY ROAD: Lot's of backroutes here...

There's madness in the method:

Madness in the method can be adapted to work in Lemmini. The climber glitch isn't strictly necessary. and I will cause I love this level as well. (I'm loving like every level in this pack (except the glitchy ones). The trick used here is again, simple but elegant and difficult to see. I'll fix the steel as well.

Yes, it dont works on lemini, and you can adapt the level. The steel is missing, you'r right.

Dr. Lemminggood: 

The solution "t3tesla - 7 - Dr Lemminggood_2.lrb" with 3 builders making a wall is the intended.

This corrosion: "Only works in Lemmix, where it can be solved with only 3 skills.". Yes, that's it!

A towering problem:

Yes, it's the nuke glitch.

... But it only works on the original version of the game.

Ice ice lemmings: Intended solution: just use the direct drop glitches. Good job, you found other solutions with the short time given ;-)

[mobius]

@Crane: I would personally recomending adding steel blocks there. It's less misleading and I feel like, before looking at it,; more solutions like this are possible. But I'll see after I play the level again.

Hints are great. The only sad thing is your levels will be the few or only levels with hints. Unless I take the time to write hints for all the other levels which is another big task needless to say.


@t3tesla
could I see your intended solution to Rocky Road?
I made some alterations to remove the easy solutions but I was just assuming what the real solution was.

My modification to Lemmings in a Situation (hopefully) forces you to use the right and the bottom hatch.

[Crane]

I haven't managed to get the steel plate additions to appear in the editor yet - still working on it.  Would gold-coloured balls along the trap's length work too, and the trap made more obvious (e.g. clearing out some of the gunk that covers the electrode head)?

[t3tesla]

@t3tesla
could I see your intended solution to Rocky Road?
I made some alterations to remove the easy solutions but I was just assuming what the real solution was.

Attached http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> It's juste the idea of bashing behind a blocker.
On the replays of this topic, the obvious backroute is bombing near the trap, to go down directly. 

[namida]

I haven't managed to get the steel plate additions to appear in the editor yet - still working on it.  Would gold-coloured balls along the trap's length work too, and the trap made more obvious (e.g. clearing out some of the gunk that covers the electrode head)?

For which engine and which editor?

If it's (Super)Lemmini, something was mentioned about the bubble set's INI file having the number of pieces listed as 64; if you change this to 68 it should work.

For (Neo)Lemmix, you must use the NeoLemmix editor, the traditional one doesn't support it at all.

[Nepster]

@Crane: New solutions/backroutes to Pipe Dream=Overflow and Jailbreak. The good news is, that I could not manage to solve Jailbreak using a builer-wall.
To view the replays, load the corresponding level as the first additional, external level. The attached solutions were not created using my levelpack.ini file.

As for Deep Freeze: Thank you for your replay. Unfortunately I don't think one can easily remove your approach. Therefore I do not think, that this level (at least with the modified high save requirements) is suitable for addition in a level pack, because the solution is annoying to execute compared with its originality.

@Mobius and t3telsa: The modifications to Rocky Road, Ice Ice Lemmings and Lemmings in a situation look very promising. Apart from one solution to Lemmings in a situation, which uses only one of the two bashers, I could not find anything at least resembling a backroute.

[Crane]

I hoped I wouldn't have to put in this particular patch for JAILBREAK!, as it makes it obvious what you're supposed to do for the top cell.

I've also put in steel plates around the trap housing in Overflow.

Each level only has three hints now - I think that's more than enough!

[mobius]

-I'd like to include Nepster's level Devil's Right Hand, it was your most popular one I think. Can you send me the intended solution in case I can't solve it in time (very likely) I struggled with this one for a while.

Could u describe your 1 basher solution to Lems in Situation?
[in the meantime I'm still trying to get replays to work..]

On Rocky Road; I think the level is pretty nice as it is now, but... I could make it a little harder with two options;
If I remove the vine trap [assuming this doesn't open up backroutes, Lemmings still should not be able to get through the cracks on the bottom] this gives a little more distraction for the player because it appears you can hold the crowd in there [I'd have to make sure you can't easily free them from it]
There would be a way then, to save 1 more lemming by using the eye of the needle trick in that area. Or I could require this by increasing the save requirement. What do you think?

@Crane I wouldn't worry a whole lot about making anything obvious; that's still a really tough level.

[Nepster]

Overflow: A pretty similar solution is still possible, cf. replay. (again made without levelpack.ini)
Jailbreak: My previous solution saved 1 lemming more than required and had 1 bomber spare. So the very same solution still works, if one uses two bombers instead of one for the upmost hatch.

Lems in a situation: The solution is not terribly interesting (which was the reason I did not attach it to my previous post). The replay attached below should work if you load the level as the very first external level and then load this replay.
Rocky Road: I am in favour of removing the vines (I cannot see how this could create backroutes), but prefer not to force the needle trick. The needle trick required some precise bomber timing, which would create unnecessary difficulty, especially as SuperLemmini does not feature instant bomber or frame-by-frame advance. But this is only my opinion...

Devil's right hand: The attached version works with SuperLemmini. View the replay the same way as the replay for Lems in a situation. Alternatively download my levelpack from the database. It should come with a batch of intended solutions.

[mobius]

Some one "new" level.

Gypse Isles, I  tried to enforce 1 (or similar) solution. This was the solution I thought of when playing this level the first time.

Rocky Road: sounds good, that's what I was going to go with as well. That way saving an extra lemming is just a little bonus thing the player can do if they happen to discover it.

I'm still working on Paitence Young Grasshopper. I'm trying to enforce a solution which is probably nothing like the intended, never-the-less I like it when I thought of it.

I've been looking through levels and am still! finding interesting levels to include to the pack.
Here's a new one by Juano I've found that really perplexes me: (sorry if someone actually nominated this one and I forgot)

[Nepster]

Rocky Road: I just noticed that once the vines are removed, one can save the additional lemming even without the needle trick:

Just bomb the second lemming.

Gyps: Not really fond of this solution, especially as the terrain makes it rather tricky to apply this trick.
Level atractivo: If my solution is intended, the level is definitely not "atractivo".
(Load both levels as the first external level to view the replays)

[mobius]

Rocky Road: I just noticed that once the vines are removed, one can save the additional lemming even without the needle trick:

Just bomb the second lemming.

Gyps: Not really fond of this solution, especially as the terrain makes it rather tricky to apply this trick.
Level atractivo: If my solution is intended, the level is definitely not "atractivo".
(Load both levels as the first external level to view the replays)

ok, that's sort of what I meant on Rocky Road, I still think it's ok, since this level isn't super hard in the first place.

Could you possibly just explain your solutions? for reasons below... or use old Lemmini. On Gyps Isles it sounds like you did something different than I, mine wasn't too difficult to pull off.

attached are some more levels to test:
Bat Country; the time limit is harsh, to (and most likely fail to) force the intended solution.

Paitence Young Grasshopper:
a lot of changes to enforce a somewhat interesting route. There is some tricky timing involved

yeah Akseli told me the solution to Puzzle Atractivo, I'm forgetting that one

note: I tried a little again today to get replays to work but they don't. Now, even many of my own replays don't work and do that same annoying pick another level thing.
Now when I try to view your latest replay of Gyps isles it says "replay made with an incompatible version of Lemmini--may fail," then crashes.
I wanted to get more done today but that did not happen.

[Nepster]

Some thoughts about how replays work in SuperLemmini (though this is only guesswork and Tsyu certainly knows more):
When one loads and external level it is stored (for this session) in External Levels - Single levels and then some number. I suspect that SuperLemmini stores this exact position in the replay. Then when you view the replay, it loads the level that is currently stored in this position. But as the position among the externally loaded levels may change, this loaded level might not be the one you wanted (or might not exist at all).

All replays I post here (for SuperLemmini and not using my levelpack.ini) are created using the very first slot for the external level. So start SuperLemmini anew, then load the one level for which you want to view the replay and then load my replay. Hopefully it works then.

As for "replay made with an incompatible version of Lemmini--may fail": Currently I am still using V0.97 in the hope that V0.98 may still load such replays http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />.

Concerning Lemmini: Unfortunately many of the SuperLemmini levels (like Gyps2) miss at least all hatches and exits when loaded in Lemmini. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

Bat Country: The time limit is indeed very harsh. With more time I would be able to save even 100%. Replay made in SuperLemmini.
Grasshopper: If my solution is intended, then the terrain should be slightly modified to ease the execution. Replay made in (Old) Lemmini, but actually not a solution, because one builder was started too low (and I did not want to do all the rest anew).

[mobius]

your suggestion was a good one, I tried it, unfortunately it didn't work. It looks like you're going to have to updrade because these replays don't work at all (as opposed to bringing up the wrong level) I've messages Tsyu about it so maybe he can help.

Grasshopper: an interesting solution! [not quite intended] Of course; building into grass is the bad part. I think you should be able to not use the blocker in the digger's hole and maintain most of this solution..
At least the level is no longer "ridiculously easy" -quote from Clam http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />
Actually your solution is really not that different from mine after thinking about it but does miss a critical part but I figured I needed to adjust this anyway because it's a little too tight for my liking.

Bat Country: I highly doubted that I stopped backroutes, I don't know why I bothered posting this version. I guess I was hoping to see what kind of backroutes are possible. I also don't like having the time limit so harsh, I'll have to think of a better way to fix that.

As to missing objects; this must be a product of saving the level with NeoLemmix. I used the SuperLemmini style after all so I can't exactly complain that this is a problem. Still bizzare.
Any level you save in SuperLemmin style with NeoLemmix btw, you won't be able to open in old Lemmix.

[Nepster]

Here are the replays using V0.98.

Grasshopper: It seems that in SuperLemmini you cannot place a blocker on top of a stair and have another lemming start another stair from the topmost brick; at least not in such a way, that another lemming can climb all these stairs as well. So it seems to me, that for the first part you need actually three builders in SuperLemmini.
Therefore I would prefer lowering the topmost steel blocks by about two or three (low-res) pixels, allowing the player to build up using only two builders and reducing the number of builders to 5. This way you remove the solution which builds into the grass and make it clear that two builders actually suffice to get up instead of letting the player figure out, that you actually need three builders.
Moreover I would raise the time limit to 6 or 7 minutes (or remove it completely), as in the attached solution, the selection of the third climber needs to timed quite accurately (though this is far from obvious at this stage of the solution).