Community Request: Find Backroutes!

[Crane]

Well let's see if these versions help things at all.  In the end I may have to accept that I can't patch every backroute, although if one is significantly more out of the way than the intended solution, I may leave it in, even if it involves tools left over.

As for the Climber-Bomber thing, in Lemmini there was more leeway because climbing Bombers exploded immediately (no "Oh no" animation), whereas for Lemmix and SuperLemmini that is not the case, and made the intended solution impossible because the lemming behind was too close.  It is doable now though, and I'm probably giving away way too much information now!

Pipe Dream / Overflow is a whole order of magnitude easier than JAILBREAK! and Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest and doesn't need that much precision really.  The intended solution is not entirely obvious but there's nothing truly outlandish, I don't think.

Oh, with JAILBREAK!, can you confirm if the building trick still works and you have enough builders to finish the level?

[Nepster]

@Crane: Mainly new solutions to Pipe Dream and Mastermind. The two solutions to Jailbreak are the same as in V9/V10, but adapted to the modified terrain.

Moreover I discussed with mobius some other old Lemmix levels. I came up with your level Deep Freeze from Garjen05.dat (though at that point I wasn't aware that you were its creator), but with modified save requirement 76/80 instead of 60/80. In my opinion, this should turn your level into a challenging multitasking level. So if that's fine with you, I would like to propose this level for consideration as a possible level to be included in an update to Revenge of the Lemmings.


@Mobius:
Here are replays of the second batch of levels you presented here (and extended levelpack.ini attached as well).
You have been fooled: Nice medium difficulty level. The "skills you can't live without" challenge would be very interesting here.
Minimal Trouble: Either I am backrouting this level or the solution is somewhat disappointing.
One small problem: Good level, even if there is a part of the level, where I can't find any explanation why the terrain is precisely like it is now.
Oven door: You should modify one trap to actually kill lemmings and the lower left part needs very precise positioning. Apart from these issues a relatively easy level, because there is not much one can actually try.
Primal Technology: At least my solution is not really interesting. Actually the most intersting fact is, that this level plays completely different in old Lemmini, where it is still solvable but requires a rather different approach. Btw. the trap seems to do nothing at all.
Someone must help us: If I remember correctly some comment I read some time ago, my solution is not completely intended. Good level though.
Survival of the fittest: Easy level, where almost any approach works. There are long waiting periods, where lemmings just have to walk around.
Angle Angel: I can guess the intended solution, but there are easier ways to solve it. The one-way walls are just weird.
Daedalus: It would be somewhat disappointing, if my solution is intended.
Shaken Tower: Again there are many many approaches that might (and actually should) work. Easy level, that is not terribly interesting.


@backrouting issue:
In my experience it is very hard to force a specific (convoluted) solution in levels with many builders (like Mastermind or Jailbreak), because there are many tricks you can do with builders and most of them can be achieved regardless of the terrain you are confronted with. This seems to make it very hard to remove the possibility to apply certain methods (cf. the various iterations of Jailbreak).

Definitely not if you have Nepster testing. He's pretty much the master of backrouting levels. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Thanks, but it is likely that I am just spending much more time (read: too much time) on solving/backrouting levels here.

[mobius]

Definitely not if you have Nepster testing. He's pretty much the master of backrouting levels. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Thanks, but it is likely that I am just spending much more time (read: too much time) on solving/backrouting levels here.

it is very much appreciated. Everyone else who can is either busy or not interested. I myself am very slow at solving levels.


before I look you most likely backrouted Ellischant's levels (Minimal and Primal, Daedalus). Thanks for the replays so I can hopefully fix them. The intended solutions are on his youtube channel and they are both unique imo. At least we don't have any levels quite like them in the pack. Daedalus is the only one I'm not sure about, I just threw that one in there to get opinions.

I'm still looking through levels myself btw.

I found the Shaken Tower to be somewhat difficult...

[Crane]

You have my permission to modify the requirements for "Deep Freeze" if you feel it isn't too much of a repeat of "Lem Dunk".  In the meantime, let's see if I can finally patch JAILBREAK! and Mastermind, despite the builders!

[Nepster]

Good point with Lem Dunk. But even though the solutions have a few similarities, Lem Dunk needs no multitasking at all and allows the player to hold the crowds between blockers. Try to do this with the attached version of Deep Freeze http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />.
Apart from raising the save requirements, I had to put the RR to 15 (to avoid one simplified solution). Moreover I moved the hatches and the water a few pixels so that the level is now completely symmetrical. I hope these modifications are OK as well?

As for the other levels: The new version of Jailbreak has opened up new and old backroutes. One of the new ones is attached. As for the old ones, it seems very likely that a builder-wall can be erected on top of the bricks to contain the lemming crowd.
Mastermind's solution is a slight modification of my previous solution.
In Pipe Dream I have realized that in some situations the hidden steel area actually helps you to solve the level.

[mobius]

Here are alterations to Primal Technology and Minimal Trouble.
Note: you must have the bubble steel installed for Primal.
I didn't look at Daedalus yet.

Also here is a Lemmix levelpack which is very puzzling. The levels look nice and are quite difficult. [except for the first level]

At this point, I am again thinking about making more than 1 levelpack. Because there are just so many levels to choose from... Plus there's Cheapo which has tons of good levels and I've only included Proxima's levels from there.

edit: also one more level which shouldn't be too hard but I'm having difficulty solving it.

[Nepster]

Could you please check Minimal Trouble. The current version has a very obvious backroute.

Where can I get the bubble steel?

One hint for the extra level:

The main problem is to turn climbers around. This can be solved using a basher and a digger (even without resorting to glitchy behaviour).

As for the t3tesla level pack:

Lemming Funhouse: Actually not that much easier than most of the other levels.
Dangerzone: An amazingly simple, but well-hidden solution. The best level of the pack.
Suicidal tendencies: Has a nice 97% solution.
Rocky Road: Has a rather simple solution/backroute. 96% is possible, without using all builders.
Lemming in a situation: Hidden trap http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" />. Have seen more interesting levels.
There's madness: Will never work in (Super)Lemmini.
Dr. Lemminggood: Has two solutions saving 96%, but both rather uninteresting.
This corrosion: Only works in Lemmix, where it can be solved with only 3 skills.
Towering Problem: Only works in Custlemm (and not even in Lemmix).
Ice Ice Lemming: My solution feels very much like a backroute, but there is simply not enough time for anything else??? And I don't talk about direct drops to the exit, which works as well.

[mobius]

ok, that was a really dumb oversight. Here's a fixed version.


Also attached is my custom styles; just replace your styles folder with it. This includes the steel plus a few extra graphics in rock, dirt, and I forget what else.
[if you don't want those other things, just go to the bubble folder; find the steel but also copy/past the ini file, you need that too]
custom styles: forum doesn't seem to allow me to attach them for some reason:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Customstyles.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/72760678/Customstyles.zip

Also I uploaded yet another version of Primal because it occurred to me there might have been an oversight in the last one.

Also a fix for the Daedalus.

thanx for the comments on t3tesla's pack. If you have replays could you send them to me please?

I may have gotten the  same back route on Ice Ice Lemming. didn't even think about the direct drop.
Trying to go down below, the closest I came I think was 10 seconds short.

-I also solved Dangerzone; was not actually difficult at all. I don't know why it seemed so impossible at first.

you can just tell me the solution to "Towering Problem". there's obviously some bizarre glitch involved, it totally baffles me.

Is it the nuke glitch?

Is it a mistake that the steel is fake in "Maddness"?

----------
I was thinking about removing "Easy when you know how" the brick level; but in case that I don't I should really change the title. Any suggestions?

I solved the brain level now, [a very interesting level!] except the time limit seems kind of harsh but useless?

[Crane]

I've just realised that an early change I made to Pipe Dream has made the official solution somewhat convoluted compared to the intended solution.  Hopefully I won't need to do many more changes to get them right.

Personally I'm wondering if Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest shouldn't be included in this pack, not just because it's proving to be near-impossible to patch the backroutes possible with the builders available.

[Nepster]

Here are some newly made replays for t3tesla.

When I first played this level pack, I literally spend hours trying Dangerzone and then about the same time wondering, why I haven't thought of the solution earlier.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />
You are correct on Towering Problem - at least that was my way to solve it.
I never even realized the fake steel in Madness, so it's likely an oversight.

I solved the brain level with about 30 seconds left on my second try, so the time limit is not sooooo harsh. Nevertheless I cannot think of a reason to keep it.

EDIT: New solution of Ice Ice lemming, which is less likely a backroute and very hard on the time.

[mobius]

I love these kinds of levels; they seem very difficult but turn out to have multiple solutions!

I found "Lemmings in a Situation" to be of similar nature to DangerZone; yesterday it seemed so impossible but today I was like; wait.. oh yeah... duh.

Your solution was actually better than mine; I think mine wasn't intended. It seems like your not supposed to go through the left most holed beam [since 1 basher doesn't cut it]. But then mine used all the skills and yours didn't...

I sent a climber from the left side and used 3 bashers plus the miner (on that left beam). Build up to the middle platform (From the left.)
After blocking on the right, build from the bottom stair, then bomb the blocker and let everyone go to the right.

I found the same solution to Suicidal Tendencies except saving 1 less cause I didn't think of the time saver. Curiously though; both of these solutions save a climber so I wonder if it's not intended.

Madness in the method can be adapted to work in Lemmini. The climber glitch isn't strictly necessary. and I will cause I love this level as well. (I'm loving like every level in this pack (except the glitchy ones). The trick used here is again, simple but elegant and difficult to see. I'll fix the steel as well.

The one I'm most curious about it ROCKY ROAD which is clearly a major backroute...

I like almost all of these and feel like adapting the non-working ones into something useful.

Any ideas for titles for these levels?

[mobius]

Glad nobody downloaded Minimal Trouble because it was still messed up  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />
Here it is; at least without any stupid obvious oversights this time:

[There should be only 1 basher in the correct version] Also; for some reason it works as intended in SuperLemmini but not in Lemmix.

[Nepster]

Lemmings in a situation: For me this level was much easier than Dangerzone. An additional advantage of your solution is, that is uses all three hatches.

Suicidal Tendencies: There is another easier(?) solution, which uses both climbers. Nevertheless removing this second solution will be somewhat difficult, if one wants to keep our first solution hidden. Perhaps lowering the rock floor several pixels suffices?

Ice Ice Lemming: I have thought a little about this level, assuming that my last solution is at least close to the intended one. To remove the others should not be hard. Direct drops won't work in SuperLemmini anyway and for the other solution, one could move the small steel block (which is floating over the water) a few pixels to the right.
The time limit is more of a problem (as we cannot pause for time as in CustLemm). Nevertheless one should gain about 4 seconds by removing one steel block from the steel platform on the left. Moreover moving the exit (together with its steel platform) to the left should gain another few seconds. All this together will likely result in the optimal solution having about 6-7 seconds spare, which I think is pretty OK for a 1-minute level.

Minimal Trouble: I don't see the problem with this level in Lemmix? And why the one-way walls?

Primal Technology: My new solution definitely would not have worked in the first version.

Daedalus: Assuming my new solution is somewhat close to the intended one, this level will need a few changes to ease the execution of the solution and some other changes to remove the necessity of several tries to convince the player, that some approaches cannot work.
Changes of the first type:
- Turning around a lemming with a builder at the rightmost water needs pixel-precise positioning.
- Digging down from the right hatch requires good positioning for the lemming to survive the fall.
Changes of the second type:
- The second lemming from the left hatch will always fall to death, even if the first lemming digs down at the optimal position. But this is a matter of very few pixels...
- If a lemming from the right hatch digs down, the second lemming will not survive the fall (by 1 pixel!!), no matter where the digger starts.
- A lemming from the right hatch, which is walking to the left cannot bridge the gap from the wooden platform to the steel wall. But the remaining gap may only be 1 low-res pixel large (and perhaps even 1 high-res pixel is possible).

Any ideas for titles for these levels?

Leaving them as they are? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

What's up with some of the levels recently mentioned in this thread using the exact same names as official ONML levels??? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

What's up with some of the levels recently mentioned in this thread using the exact same names as official ONML levels??? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

I really don't know. No matter the reason; that's why I will change them; I want original titles, not ones already used in the official game.

I did contact t3tesla btw, but with the PM email notification system being down who knows if/when he'll realize it.

@Nepster: didn't look at your replays yet, I will soon. Also I plan on playing Crane's levels finally.
the one-way walls in Minimal Trouble were just a product of my stupidity. I've removed them.

EDIT: *sigh* the replay for Minimal Trouble is not working again. [this time when I load the level it looks fine but when I load the replay an OLDER version of the level comes up.] since this is a simple level you could just write your solution if it's not too much trouble.