Community Request: Find Backroutes!

[Crane]

Here are my original replays for möbius' choice levels, modified so they work with Nepster's levelpack.ini file.

Comment about "Hey that's not cool guys":

You might want to set the exit to be "no overwrite", because it kind of gives away the fact that building over it is not correct.

[Nepster]

Next iteration.

[Crane]

JAILBREAK's solution was just cheeky, and Pipe Dream was short-sighted on my part.

Okay, let's see how this does.

[mobius]

I think I take back my decision about the first pipe dream, I forgot how difficult that level was when you first encounter it. But I think it's misplaced; it could go a littler earlier.


Here are a bunch of new levels to backroute! yay

[note please play "Life as a Worm" in Lemmix. It's plain easy in Lemmini beacuse the stair stops them. I uploaded this level back when we made the first version of the pack but nobody solved this level!]

Since I have a "survival of the fittest" here we can name Crane's level "part 2" if you decide to go with that title

[namida]

I had a go on your "Life as a Worm" level; nice level, has me stumped. My only possible idea is (unless it was meant for NeoLemmix, in which case it's very trivial to solve there due to stricter terrain checks on climbers)...

That the solution involves that trick where a climber repeatedly tries to climb the edge of a basher's tunnel.

However, I can't actually seem to set that up in this level.

In case it matters: What mechanics did you use for this? I've been playing under CustLemm mechanics, should I be using Orig or OhNo instead? (Not that I can see any reason it'd make a difference on this level.)

EDIT: I've tried some more, and still no luck. I can come up with a hundred different ways to save 66%, but none to save 100%. I've never been the best at *solving* levels, but yeah... this is definitely a really good challenge!

[Crane]

Normally, a "(Part Two)" is a revisiting of an existing level with a slight change of scenery and/or tools rather than a completely new level.  However:

Pipe Dream:

- Overflow
- Burst Main

For Mastermind, I guess it might have to be a "Part Two" if it clashes with "Mastermined", or a "Survival of the Fittest", unless someone has a better name, possibly something with "Final" or "Last" in it if it is very close to the end.

[mobius]

I had a go on your "Life as a Worm" level; nice level, has me stumped. My only possible idea is (unless it was meant for NeoLemmix, in which case it's very trivial to solve there due to stricter terrain checks on climbers)...

That the solution involves that trick where a climber repeatedly tries to climb the edge of a basher's tunnel.

However, I can't actually seem to set that up in this level.

In case it matters: What mechanics did you use for this? I've been playing under CustLemm mechanics, should I be using Orig or OhNo instead? (Not that I can see any reason it'd make a difference on this level.)

EDIT: I've tried some more, and still no luck. I can come up with a hundred different ways to save 66%, but none to save 100%. I've never been the best at *solving* levels, but yeah... this is definitely a really good challenge!

I've used CustLemm but I don't think it matters. I actually spoke to Ellischant (the author) and he doesn't remember the solution so it may very well be impossible, in any case, it intrigued me a great deal and inspired my own level "Last Lemming Standing"
Your first idea there might very well be the solution; but that can be really annoying to pull off...

Normally, a "(Part Two)" is a revisiting of an existing level with a slight change of scenery and/or tools rather than a completely new level.  However:

Pipe Dream:

- Overflow
- Burst Main

For Mastermind, I guess it might have to be a "Part Two" if it clashes with "Mastermined", or a "Survival of the Fittest", unless someone has a better name, possibly something with "Final" or "Last" in it if it is very close to the end.

You're right; "part1/2" isn't always appropriate but here the levels are similar in most of the cases, Four Lemmings and Funeral for example; both are small compact crystal levels with 4 lemmings/save 3. And Survival of the Fittest; both of these are levels that span the entire screen and are like a long journey of sorts (the snow level which I just uploaded is a lot easier of course).
I prefer Survival of the Fittest over Mastermind, personally. But since the Mastermin(e)d title isn't really exactly the same a part 1/2 isn't really needed I guess. Although it's a little confusing. I'm afraid I don't have any other title suggestions but I might think of some.

I like the title Overflow.

[Crane]

I need to shift Pipe Dream / Overflow to the middle of the playfield and add some more scenery in the whitespace (or blackspace in this case!).

JAILBREAK! and Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest are pretty full of scenery already and should be fine as is.

P.S. Any luck solving the latest versions of the levels yet? I can post up my official, intended solutions if not.  I do confess that I worry that Mastermind / Survival of the Fittest is extremely difficult to work out and not always fair on execution.

[ccexplore]

I've used CustLemm but I don't think it matters. I actually spoke to Ellischant (the author) and he doesn't remember the solution so it may very well be impossible, in any case, it intrigued me a great deal and inspired my own level "Last Lemming Standing"
Your first idea there might very well be the solution; but that can be really annoying to pull off...

mobius kinda pulled me into this over IRC, but so far I'm pretty much coming to same conclusions as namida, if we're talking about Lemmix-based mechanics.  In fact I'm not even sure whether the timing can ever work out with that trick in this case.  If I have time, I'll continue to think about the level and see whether I can either provide a reasonably convincing argument that the level can't be solved, or maybe find a hole in such an argument and actually solve the level as a result.

Excluding some crazy setup I haven't thought of yet, "timing" pretty much boils down to where the basher's standing at relative to the blocker, at the moment the blocker gets freed by the basher.  Since a basher advanced 5 pixels per stroke, there are basically just 5 different possibilities.  There are a couple of details I haven't accounted for, but ultimately I believe the number of possibilities aren't that large and can each be checked manually with an appropriate test level.

Based on how I know the trick works and what I'm observing, I believe the main problem applying the trick to this level, is that when you free the blocker with the basher, it starts falling down more or less immediately.  In contrast, the way the trick works, the basher fools the climber into transitioning into the "finish climbing to the top" state (aka "hoister" in Lemmix programming), whose animation eats up some time (8 frames I think) before the lemming finally transitions to "walker standing on thin air" and then finally starts falling down.  So what I think would happen in this level is that the freed blocker would fall, walk, and reach the end of bashing tunnel sooner than the case where the timing works out perfectly to sustain the trick.  And reaching the end of tunnel too soon obviously means the next time the climber climbs, he'd hit his head before the basher is able to remove enough terrain to sustain the trick.

[ccexplore]

The testing does show issues with applying the trick:  even in best case it seems like the trick can only be "sustained" for a small number of times before things go out of sync.

Without using the suggested trick it doesn't seem like there are any other way to solve the level, at least I haven't seen any yet.  Here are the "arguments" (thus the refutation of any of them provides the possibility of a solution):

1) Seems like the two bashers have to be used in the two obvious places--one in order to reach the exit, and the other to lead the walker (there must be one since you have 3 lemmings but only 2 climbers, and I don't think you can just build yourself over the obstacle near the entrance) to the exit path.

2) In order to get to the place where you need to bash, someone must climb over, and then somehow turn around (or turn some other lemming around) facing left.  Seems like builders will be required for this--using blockers doesn't really help since 100% requirement means the blocker has to be freed eventually, and then you're basically back to the same situation (or worse) with needing to turn that freed blocker around.

3) Seems like you actually need both builders to handle the turn-around issue.  Building once from the edge just barely connects the bridge to the wall, without turning the builder around.  Falling down the edge to build to the wall, you don't seem to have enough builders to get back up.  Moreover, I'm not seeing a way of using both builders that result in that side of the level permanently able to turn climbers around.  (And yes, I've tried building in various pixel-precise places on top of the wall--you either only turn the builder around, or the builder himself gets stuck up there with no way out.)

And with those points above, you seem to be left with only the method namida's trying, which doesn't seem to work out timing-wise based on my testing, at least not in any straightforward way.  Given how fiddly the timing requirements are anyway (if even possible at all), it is questionable whether such a solution should be forced upon your players anyway.

[namida]

As a note, I did check if the level had any hidden-in-terrain or invisible exits (it doesn't), if any of the water was fake (it isn't), or if any of the steel is fake (some actually is, but only in places that you can't get to anyway; nothing that would impact the solution).

And yep, I tried pretty much everything you mentioned there. The only other thought I have is that getting the timing might possibly involve blocking on the basher's step mid-bash; but I can't find any timing / combination of placements that allows you to do this anyway, let alone actually try any solution based on it.

[Nepster]

Here are more solutions to Crane's levels.
My previous cheeky solution to Jailbreak still works (though I did not include it in the replays): Use one more builder to create the stair-wall. Then we have to do the rest with one builder less. But building from the starting platform the wall on the right can be replaced by a climber-bomber.
Moreover I attached a similarly cheeky solution to Mastermind using again the top route.
 

[Crane]

The Climber-Bomber is actually part of the intended solution.  I am starting to lose hope a bit though that I can patch everything without opening up something else.

[namida]

The Climber-Bomber is actually part of the intended solution.  I am starting to lose hope a bit though that I can patch everything without opening up something else.

Definitely not if you have Nepster testing. He's pretty much the master of backrouting levels. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

sorry for putting people through trying to solve an impossible level, but thank for testing it. I deem that if ccx cannot solve it; it's unsolvable. Which is a shame because for some reason it just looked like a level with a really cool solution.

The Climber-Bomber is actually part of the intended solution.  I am starting to lose hope a bit though that I can patch everything without opening up something else.

It's especially difficult with complex levels like these.
I plan to play the levels soon and haven't watched any replays yet. But so far I can see that they're good levels. But maybe you can just lax the solution a bit? I realize allowing for leeway or multiple solutions makes the level easier, but it can still be a tough level even so. In Jailbreak, for example, I can see at first glance certain interesting things that need or should be done. And it's not immediately obvious Any time that is the case; it's a good level. Well maybe not but... I don't really know what I'm talking about. They may still go near the end of the pack.

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I've gotten 5 tutorial levels. I still need a blocker and basher tutorial. If anyone has any suggestions.