Community Request: Find Backroutes!

[Crane]

Aah, good job.  I've made the most subtle of changes to both levels that I hope will patch the issues - good luck in using that hook now!

Thanks again for your help.

[Nepster]

Overflow needed a slightly different approach now and the builder-wall in Jailbreak vanished again, but otherwise...

[mobius]

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> on Gypse Isles. The extra basher is there in case the builder on the left gets too high; you can cut it short.

I'm currently trying to recreate the Mon0lith by ISteve, if anyone knows the intended solution to this level help would be appreciated. The Cheapo version has backroutes. I've not solved either that or the Lix version.

One theory I have is that you have the climbers go up and mine and build to make a path then use bashers against the miner's slopes to turn the bulk of lemmings around. The problem with this solution is [if it's anywhere near correct or even possible] it would require an insane amount of timing and precision. 

attached is the incomplete version I've made so far, Idk if this is solvable.

Also is a new level by Ben Bryant--this one is not very difficult but I like the appearance a lot.

[Nepster]

Mon0lith:

One theory I have is that you have the climbers go up and mine and build to make a path then use bashers against the miner's slopes to turn the bulk of lemmings around. The problem with this solution is [if it's anywhere near correct or even possible] it would require an insane amount of timing and precision. 

This is the intended solution to the Lix version. With the runners given in the Lix version, the amount of precision needed is actually pretty low.

Access denied: Numbering the exits from left to right, I can manage to get the lemmings to exits 1 (very easy), 3 (tricky), 6 (hard) and 8 (relatively easy).

[Crane]

Hopefully just very minor fixes.

[mobius]

Mon0lith:

One theory I have is that you have the climbers go up and mine and build to make a path then use bashers against the miner's slopes to turn the bulk of lemmings around. The problem with this solution is [if it's anywhere near correct or even possible] it would require an insane amount of timing and precision. 

This is the intended solution to the Lix version. With the runners given in the Lix version, the amount of precision needed is actually pretty low.

Access denied: Numbering the exits from left to right, I can manage to get the lemmings to exits 1 (very easy), 3 (tricky), 6 (hard) and 8 (relatively easy).

cool beans.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> on one hand I'm proud I figured that level out, on the other it'll be tough to work out but I think I can make it work...

on Acess Denied; for left most exit did you bash/mine twice through the grey pillars? Will adding one more pillar there work to prevent access to that one? I'm okay with leaving the others in if they're not really easy to get to.

[Nepster]

@mobius: One well-placed basher and one miner (for the last quarter) is sufficient to get through the grey pillars. Three grey pillars with a little more space in between should take care of the direct approach. However a far more tricky solution will still reach the left-most exit.

@Crane: Just minor fixes on the solutions.

[Crane]

I added an extra one-way wall in Overflow, which I can reposition to be more restrictive if it's still possible to complete the level that way.  As for JAILBREAK!, it was surprisingly difficult to construct that chain in such a way that it can't be blocked off (and removing it completely opens up another backroute, I think), but let's see how it performs this time.  I tried to manipulate your replay to work with the current fix, and I smiled when I discovered I actually built up to the ceiling in such a way that it prevented the lemmings from even reaching the wheel trap!

[mobius]

I would like to present another dos levelpack; twigpak3
similar to t3tesla's they're all short and sweet.
The first three are nice, 1 and 3 with simple but obtuse tricks used.
Think Fast part 1 has an obvious easy backroute to save 100%--I can't see what was intended there.

Blockafloater is my favorite; small compact and complex level. The only bad thing is the title gives the solution away! [The solution I found at least, this was before I looked at title btw]

Undermining is a nice one but backrouted, and not outstanding imo

Passing Loop is also a nice one but I fear it has many solutions

Corrosion has some fake steel, if intended; without this deception it's another decent simple level. I may have still backrouted it however, I didn't use all builders.
If the fake steel is a mistake then I have no idea currently on how to solve it.

Think Fast part 2 is actually decently hard unlike part 1

[Nepster]

@Crane: Two more solutions. They are likely the last replays for this year.

@möbius:
- TheClanger: There is only one way I see to save the lemming from the left, which automatically yields the solution. So I don't get the obtuse trick here?
- Here is a backroute for Blockafloater (at least the title has nothing to do with my solution).
- ThinkFast2 can be solved using only one builder. This needs very precise positioning in Lemmix due to bad steel handling. It will get better in Lemmini.

Merry Christmas to all!

[Crane]

Thanks again Nepster, using every bit of terrain available!  I hope these fixes don't open up new backroutes.  One way to find out...

[mobius]

a remake of Insane Steve's the Mon0lith. There are claims to be backroutes in the Cheapo version (which this is more similar to than the lix version) but I can't see any. I only found the intended solution myself.
This design is based off a level by hubbart called "Another Lost Civilization"

@Crane; You might want to think about making more drastic changes to your levels to remove the backroutes I mean, maybe it's only me but it feels like this is going to go on forever at this point.

Although I haven't got time [possibly never will] to read through all the old posts on older levels, I think I'm done adding more levels. I have to decide now finally on which to eliminate.

[Crane]

My apologies for it going on forever, but it's harder than I thought because I'm only being given one solution at a time, and when I patch the level, a completely different part of the level is exploited.  The last update, for example, was to patch something that wasn't even touched before.  If multiple people tested the level at once, I would be able to patch multiple things together.  JAILBREAK! I think is pretty much patched now, unless Nepster finds something that hasn't been done yet.  Overflow I think is patched too, but I can't guarantee that Nepster won't find something ingenious.

I try to avoid drastic changes if possible because it can easily open up new backroutes or change the official solution if not make it impossible.  Either way, if time is up, you can use the current versions as is.

[mobius]

I didn't mean to rush you, and I'd also be glad to get rid of all backroutes. I've tried the levels myself now and again but they're both very hard. I'd rather have them fixed then go into the pack with backroutes.
The reason I said something was on a complicated levels like these, I think it's a matter of deciding how picky you want to be about the solution. I don't it's very likely to be able or possible to limit only 1 exacting solution on a very complex level, even so it can still be very hard. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but it may be.
Duality for example is considered very hard yet people have found different solutions to it. If Yawg were here he'd probably try to force his solution [which may not actually work in SuperLemmini  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> ] but I think the game is more fun with less precision.

In any case; there's still plenty of time left. There's tons of work to do. I will attempt your levels again, maybe I'll get somewhere this time  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />
I know, It would be easier with more people testing but what can we do, it's a small community.

Also the reason I haven't been making a lot of announcements about my decisions is because I keep changing my mind over and over again so it's pointless for me to say this and that.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

[Crane]

No worries.  What I like with Duality is, with one exception, all of the solutions keep to the essence of the level with the beautiful builder sacrifice, and the skill-set is meant to leave a few things left over (at least the Floaters, for example, simply because there are no dangerous falls to traverse).

The reason why I'm picky with JAILBREAK! and Overflow is because my intended solutions are meant to use all the tools at one's disposal (and Overflow uses a couple of nice tricks), while Nepster's backroutes leave climbers left over, among other things.