Holiday Lemmings Plus & Lemmings Plus Flashbacks

[namida]

Well, I've decided that since there's only one level, and it's one that has multiple solutions anyway (and it took a few people playing it before that route surfaced), I'm going to leave all the levels as is for Holiday Lemmings Plus.

There will, however, be the usual update that puts it on a newer NeoLemmix version and re-enables stuff like cheat mode in the INI file, LookForLVLFiles, etc. This will come when NeoLemmix V1.24n player is ready for release - doesn't nessecerially have to wait for the styles, patches to other player levels, editor update, etc. However, unless any mechanics-related glitches are found between now and then, there won't be any mechanics changes that affect Holiday Lemmings Plus - the only mechanics change that affects existing levels (rather than providing new options for new levels) is the blocker + locked exit glitch being fixed, and obviously no HLP levels use locked exits so it's irrelevant there.

[Nepster]

My Top 30 LP-levels mostly coincide with yours, but there are 8 differences:

Levels not im my Top 30 (though most of them would be in my Top 40):
Psycho 1 - Variety Day: A good level, but I never understood why others praise is SUCH highly. At least my solution needs some bomber timing and is not as "clean" as one might wish for.
Psycho 18 - Return of the T: A good idea, but the long waiting periods while the lemmings bash/mine/dig take some of the fun away.
Psycho 23 - Death Row: I haven't played the NeoLemmix version, but I remember this level to be very fiddly. Moreover I frequently assigned skills to other lemmings than intended.
Nice 7 - Together we Sand: The best Nice level, but compared to the other level in the Top 30 it feels somewhat unimaginative.
Cheeky 20 - Kickback Scheme: Again certainly not a bad level, but due to the possibility to send one lemming ahead to do all the work, this does not range among my Top 30.
Sneeky 9 - Rolling Rampage: The intended solution deserves to be included among the Top 30, but unfortunately one doesn't need to send a climber to the left...
Genius 4 - Diet Control: Same situation here. The more straight-forward alternative solution prohibits this from a place among my favourites. But I am not sure, whether this alternative appoach works under NeoLemmix mechanics as well?
Dodgy 8 - Synergestic effects: I felt it pretty obvious what to do here.
Fierce 1 - Dead is the Black: Pretty unique trick, but there are not many approaches one can try.

Levels in my Top 30:
Medi 24 -  The Eye of the Lemming: I agree with Akseli.
Danger 15 - Circular Wavelength: Another level that is very much fun to play.
Psycho 25 - Bullet Lemmings: Even if the time limit could be slighty relaxed, the idea is brilliant.
Psycho 30 - Hellfire: I very much enjoyed figuring out which skill to use where. And the existence of two solutions, both hard to find, makes the level even better.
Genius 6 - Treetop Trial: I think I already mentioned that this is after Panic attack the second best level in LPII.
Dodgy 7 - Experimental Materials: I agree with Akseli.
Rough 1 - Viva Las Lemmine: It stands in the shadow of Hardwired, but is an excellent level nonetheless.
Fierce 4 - Lost in Translation: A level with many approaches, but few which actually work. All solutions known to me are ingenious.

[namida]

Psycho 1 - Variety Day: A good level, but I never understood why others praise is SUCH highly. At least my solution needs some bomber timing and is not as "clean" as one might wish for.

LPDOS has instant bombers, though? :/ And...

At least in the intended solution, the bomber and the digger are 100% interchangeable.

As for Genius 4, if it requires all the builders, it definitely won't work under NeoLemmix, as the NeoLemmix version gives one less builder.

[Nepster]

Psycho 1: You are absolutely correct - interchanging the two skills makes it easier. As for bomber timing: In the attached solution, the bomber has to be placed in such a way that the climber=basher is not the first one to walk to the left, which is rather non-trivial (even with instant bombers).

Genius 4: If I remember correctly then the alternative solution, I have in mind, needs all builders. But I will have to check that.
EDIT: The alternative solution works as well with only 4 builders, cf. attachment. But I think the stricter checks for builders hitting the ceiling will prevent this solution from working in NeoLemmix.

[namida]

Yep, that solution definitely won't work in NeoLemmix.

[namida]

Finalised version of Holiday Lemmings Plus has now been uploaded. There shouldn't be any gameplay differences from the first release, the main difference is things like LookForLVLFiles, cheat codes in the INI, and so on being enabled.

If you're planning to use LookForLVLFiles with it by the way - keep in mind that HLP uses the NeoCustLemmix numbering for the Xmas style (ie: graphic set #9), not the numbering that H94 and X91/92 used (ie: graphic set #2). With that being said, once the V1.24n general release and editor are available, this won't be too important as V1.24n supports styles by name instead of number.


Obviously Lemmings Plus C Project won't require much work - mostly just a matter of deciding what levels to include, then building a player (and half the work for that is already done). With NeoLemmix also being close to being finalised, this means almost all my Lemmings effort now is focused on LPZ.

[Wafflem]

I'll mention my favorite levels too. NOTE: This list is incomplete for three reasons: gimmicks/frenzies/bonus pack levels are not allowed, the levels I am listing I feel are (or would have been) worthy enough for the pack, and that I haven't beaten the harder levels yet, especially in the PSYCHO, Cunning, Genius, Rough and Fierce levels. I'll follow a similar format to how Nepster reviewed the levels.

Levels on the 30 that aren't on my favorite list:
Nice 7 – Together We Sand – this one's a good level, but I feel that it's slightly similar to Fun 11 with a few more obstacles.
Cheeky 7 – Yours Treely - there's nothing special about the solution, though I do like the visual design.
Dodgy 8 – Synergistic Effect – as Nepster said, the solution is obvious.
Fierce 1 – Dead Is the New Black – I love the trick used here, but it doesn't feel like it should be in this collection pack. Also, it feels odd that this is the first level of Fierce, despite it being supposedly the easiest Fierce level.

Levels on the 30 that are my favorites:
Mild 12 – On the Pier – a very fun "find a safe way" down level with so many solutions.
Mild 30 – You Just Lost the Game! – a great way to conclude the Mild rating, especially with so many tricky obstacles
Wimpy 10 – Labyrinth of Despair – now this one is truly deserving to be on this list! Not only are there multiple solutions in this level, but every solution requires a couple of tricks to get up the walls, making this level very fun indeed.
Wimpy 12 – Russian Rescue – another level deserving to be on the list, due to it being a puzzle level that requires a certain degree of strategic thinking
Timid 15 – Locked Out! –I'm sure a couple of you know by now that the locked exit/button puzzles are my favorite types of levels (although I haven't beaten Collection Pit or Lost In Translation, sadly; the former I really want to beat). I am very glad this one made it in the pack.
Cheeky 5 – A Violation of Lemming Rights – another great puzzle level with so many one-way walls and a very tricky structure.
Medi 6 – Fallen – the LPDOS winner, and very deserving of the first place position (or Wimpy 10/12, whichever one doesn't matter). Gotta love all the tricks used in this level.
Medi 16 – The Oddstack – okay, this one may be very difficult, but I've learned a lot from this level in regards to timing. Plus, this one will be four minutes long in NeoLemmix, so this level won't be as bad this time.
Dodgy 11 – Extra Skill Required – a puzzling level that makes very great use of the pickup skills. Definitely deserving to be on this pack.
Sneaky 13 – When Only a Lemming Will Do – a fun Sneaky level, especially if you only have one minute. Lots of timing involved, making this one a challenge.
Danger 5 – Some Kind Of Lemming – a small but challenging and rewarding level. I didn't even know that the Oblivion trick wasn't even part of this level's intended solution.
PSYCHO 1 – Variety Day – the best Hero concept level (along with Hero Frenzy, but that can't be included).
Genius 8 – Panic Attack – of course, one of the best levels of LPII with a really great, claustrophobic design and lots of timing.

Levels not on the Top 30 that are my favorites and would have been worthy to add:
Medi 8 – Cavern of Chills – this one may look simple, but finding a way up that dirt wall requires a certain strategy.
Medi 12 – Step Up! – a great level that uses a lot of destructive skill tricks. I also liked the limited builders.
Danger 6 – Alternative Logic – you've managed to squeeze everything in just one minute, with the solution requiring the last lemming entering the exit right before time runs out. A gem indeed.
Danger 11 – The Warp Room – this one is your oldest level, and it may be worth adding so people will know how you started designing levels.
Danger 16 – Grounded! – my favorite "find a safe way down" level.
PSYCHO 22 – Twins – a great "find a way up" level with a limited number of builders, requiring you to use other destructive skills.
Nice 12 – Cactus Island – like On the Pier, but more challenging with a limitaton of blockers, builders and bashers that make this level more worthy of being in the pack.
Nice 17 – Lemmings Gettin' Down – this one is intense due to the fact that you only have bashers and bombers along with a high release rate.
Cheeky 15 – To the Treehouse! – I agree with Akseli here; I had a lot of fun with this one.
Sneaky 5 – Misfortune of the Masses – a very great level; you have to find a way around the walls while trying to save the lemmings at the left at the same time.
Sneaky 10 – Drought Season – this one isn't actually one of my favorites, but the general consensus is that it's a very good and tricky level involving trying to solve it when you are unable to hold the lemmings back, so this one would have been worthy to add.
Genius 13 – Only a Lemming Away – I had fun with this one, it required a lot of good timing, and I felt the solution was clever.
Timid 12 – No Floaters, Guaranteed – this one's so intense due to the high release rate and that radiation object in the middle. It's also slightly similar to Cactus Island because you have to find a safe way down without floaters (but you have plenty of skills). There's also multiple solutions in this one.
Dodgy 3 – Flea Market – one of the most original levels I have ever played. A level that can only be solved by knowing which pickup skills to use? Clever indeed.
Dodgy 7 – Experiemental Materials – agreed with Akseli and Nepster. This one should be in the collection pack, despite it not making it to the finals. It's fun finding a way around the one-way walls.
Fierce 3 – The Soft Scale – this one required a lot of tricks to solve, but it felt very rewarding for me once I figured it out. I also made good utilization of the updraft.

I recommend adding Dodgy 7 "Experimental Materials" if you plan to add two more levels, partly because there aren't a lot of LPIII levels in the list, and partly because this level is also Akseli's and Nepster's favorite. Cheeky 15 "To the Treehouse" is another strong consideration.

[namida]

Based on the feedback here, some considerations - nothing is finalised yet, and obviously not *all* of these additions/removals can actually happen, they're just candidates:

Possibly consider adding
Medi 24 :: This one was actually one originally on my list before I cut it down to 30.
PSYCHO 25 :: I never realised this one was so popular. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Cheeky 15 :: I might've been a bit biased here in all honesty; this level seems to be very popular, but it's one I myself am not overly fond of. I'll reconsider this one.
Genius 6 :: This is another one that was on the pre-cutdown list.
Dodgy 7 :: Well, if it's THAT popular... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Rough 1 :: I actually completely forgot about this level while drawing up the lists, it definitely should've at least been considered.

Possibly consider removing
Psycho 18 :: This might've been somewhat influenced by nostalgia. In it's original Cheapo incarnation, this was the first really challenging level I ever made. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Nice 7 :: It seems generally agreed that this level isn't *that* great.
Cheeky 7 :: This may also be somewhat nostalgia-influenced, since it was the first level I created for Lemmix in a custom-made style.
Fierce 1 :: Yeah, might be a bit out of place really...


As for the remark on The Warp Room as my first level - it's not even close. I've made many levels before this; it's just my oldest level that still survives anywhere (or actually, "This Time We Brought 30 More" might be even older, though that's an edit of an official level rather than a completely original one). I probably have hundreds of older levels that have been lost to computer reformats / breakdowns / simply deleting them because I don't like them later on.

[Wafflem]

It shouldn't be a problem to add them all. I remember a few posts back that you were considering four ranks of eight levels each.

If you remove those four levels you listed, that would bring it down to 26, and if you add the six levels, it will bring it to 32; thus, it is possible to have the four ranks of eight levels each. These levels you considered adding will really work for new players to Lemmings Plus anyway; they're quite fun and challenging.

[namida]

I only just realised I hadn't put these up yet, so here's my solutions for the levels in Holiday Lemmings Plus. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjows0iquzujni9/HLP_Solutions.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjows0iquzujni9/HLP_Solutions.zip

[namida]

Okay so, for LPC, here's the revised list - using the idea of doing it as 32 levels spread over 4 ranks of 8 levels each. I haven't sorted these into a finalised order yet.

The ones that are crossed off are ones that were on my initial list that have now been removed from the list; those in italics are the new additions.

Mild 12 "On The Pier"
Mild 30 "You Just Lost The Game!"
Wimpy 10 "Labyrinth of Despair"
Wimpy 12 "Russian Rescue"
Medi 6 "Fallen"
Medi 16 "The Oddstack"
Medi 24 "Eye of the Lemming"
Medi 29 "Lemmingsense"
Danger 5 "Some Kind Of Lemming"
Danger 22 "Die the Death of the Damned"
Psycho 1 "Variety Day"
Psycho 18 "Return of the T"
Psycho 20 "No Time To Die"
Psycho 23 "Death Row"
Psycho 25 "Bullet Lemming"

Nice 7 "Together We Sand"
Cheeky 5 "A Violation Of Lemming Rights"
Cheeky 7 "Yours Treely"
Cheeky 15 "To The Treehouse!"
Cheeky 20 "Kickback Scheme"
Sneaky 9 "Rolling Rampage"
Sneaky 13 "When Only A Lemming Will Do"
Cunning 5 "Maximum Security"
Cunning 17 "Cyclic Lemming"
Genius 4 "Diet Control"
Genius 6 "Treetop Trial"
Genius 8 "Panic Attack"
Genius 17 "No Construction Zone"

Timid 15 "Locked Out!"
Dodgy 7 "Experimental Materials"
Dodgy 8 "Synergistic Effect"
Dodgy 11 "Extra Skill Required"
Rough 1 "Viva Las Lemmine"
Rough 7 "Hardwired!"
Fierce 1 "Dead Is The New Black"
Fierce 13 "Crossover Arena"

[namida]

Okay, so looks like those levels it is. Now for how to divide them up... I'm going with the idea of four ranks, I haven't got names for them yet so I'll just refer to them by the difficulty level in this post.

These are not yet finalised, and are not yet ordered within the ranks.

Easy
Mild 12 "On The Pier"
Mild 30 "You Just Lost The Game!"
Wimpy 10 "Labyrinth of Despair"
Wimpy 12 "Russian Rescue"
Cheeky 5 "A Violation Of Lemming Rights"
Sneaky 9 "Rolling Rampage"
Timid 15 "Locked Out!"
Dodgy 8 "Synergistic Effect"

Medium
Medi 6 "Fallen"
Medi 24 "Eye of the Lemming"
Medi 29 "Lemmingsense"
Cheeky 15 "To The Treehouse!"
Cheeky 20 "Kickback Scheme"
Dodgy 7 "Experimental Materials"
Dodgy 11 "Extra Skill Required"
Rough 7 "Hardwired!"

Hard
Medi 16 "The Oddstack"
Danger 5 "Some Kind Of Lemming"
Psycho 1 "Variety Day"
Psycho 23 "Death Row"
Psycho 25 "Bullet Lemming"
Sneaky 13 "When Only A Lemming Will Do"
Cunning 17 "Cyclic Lemming"
Rough 1 "Viva Las Lemmine"

Very Hard
Danger 22 "Die the Death of the Damned"
Psycho 20 "No Time To Die"
Cunning 5 "Maximum Security"
Genius 4 "Diet Control"
Genius 6 "Treetop Trial"
Genius 8 "Panic Attack"
Genius 17 "No Construction Zone"
Fierce 13 "Crossover Arena"

[Wafflem]

Suggestions for the list:

Switch Sneaky 9 with Dodgy 7.
Switch Danger 5 with either Rough 7 or Cheeky 20.

[namida]

1) Sneaky 9 is actually quite easy for the most part. It does involve a bit of clever placement on the last few skills, but overall I think Dodgy 7 is harder, especially with the 100% requirement.
2) All three of these levels lie on the boundary between the two sections really, I came up with a (preliminary) ordered list and it puts Rough 7 and Cheeky 20 at the end of the second section and Danger 5 at the start of the third. I might see what other feedback is given on these ones.


Speaking of which, preliminary ordered list:

Easy
Mild 12 "On The Pier"
Mild 30 "You Just Lost The Game!"
Wimpy 10 "Labyrinth of Despair"
Cheeky 5 "A Violation Of Lemming Rights"
Wimpy 12 "Russian Rescue"
Sneaky 9 "Rolling Rampage"
Timid 15 "Locked Out!"
Dodgy 8 "Synergistic Effect"

Medium
Cheeky 15 "To The Treehouse!"
Dodgy 7 "Experimental Materials"
Dodgy 11 "Extra Skill Required"
Medi 24 "Eye of the Lemming"
Medi 29 "Lemmingsense"
Medi 6 "Fallen"
Rough 7 "Hardwired!"
Cheeky 20 "Kickback Scheme"

Hard
Danger 5 "Some Kind Of Lemming"
Sneaky 13 "When Only A Lemming Will Do"
Medi 16 "The Oddstack"
Rough 1 "Viva Las Lemmine"
Psycho 1 "Variety Day"
Psycho 23 "Death Row"
Cunning 17 "Cyclic Lemming"
Psycho 25 "Bullet Lemming"

Very Hard
Cunning 5 "Maximum Security"
Danger 22 "Die the Death of the Damned"
Genius 4 "Diet Control"
Genius 17 "No Construction Zone"
Psycho 20 "No Time To Die"
Genius 6 "Treetop Trial"
Fierce 13 "Crossover Arena"
Genius 8 "Panic Attack"

[namida]

I take it there's no further comments on the order, then?

Also, the Holiday Lemmings Plus level images are finally up on the NeoLemmix website.

Also - as picked by the votes on the poll earlier in this topic - the official name for LPC will be "Lemmings Plus Flashbacks". http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />