Zendo, play by forum

[Simon]

The white FISH is odd, hmm.

MMMO
EEE
EEEI
LLL
LLLI
LLLLLL
LLLLLLL

-- Simon

[Proxima]

I assure you it's not a red herring 

White koans:
CUDDLE    MLEINGM
EMMING    MMING
FISH      MMEMM
LEMMING   MMMI
LEMMINGE  MMMO
LEMMINGS  PARALLELOGRAM
LMMNG
MAGIC
MIMIMIM

Black koans:
EE        LIMENG    MMM
EEE       LLL
EEEI      LLLI
EEING     LLLLLL
EI        LLLLLLL
L         MIM
LEMI      MINM
LEMING    MM
LIME      MMI
LIMEN     MMIN

Note that EEEI disproves Will's rule guess.

[namida]

FISHING
FSH
FISHLEMMING
LEMMINGFISH

[Proxima]

White koans:
CUDDLE        LMMNG
EMMING        MAGIC
FISH          MIMIMIM
FISHING       MLEINGM
FISHLEMMING   MMEMM
LEMMING       MMING
LEMMINGE      MMMI
LEMMINGFISH   MMMO
LEMMINGS      PARALLELOGRAM

Black koans:
EE        LIMEN     MMIN
EEE       LIMEING    MMM
EEEI      LLL
EEING     LLLI
EI        LLLLLL
FSH       LLLLLLL
L         MIM
LEMI      MINM
LEMING    MM
LIME      MMI

[Simon]

EISH
GISH
HISH
FMSH
FLSH

-- Simon

[Proxima]

White koans:
CUDDLE        LEMMINGE      MMING
EMMING        LEMMINGFISH   MMMI
FISH          LEMMINGS      MMMO
FISHING       LIMEING       PARALLELOGRAM
FISHLEMMING   LMMNG
FLSH          MAGIC
FMSH          MIMIMIM
HISH          MLEINGM
LEMMING       MMEMM

Black koans:
EE        LEMING     MM
EEE       LIME       MMI
EEEI      LIMEN      MMIN
EEING     LIMENG     MMM
EI        LLL
EISH      LLLI
FSH       LLLLLL
GISH      LLLLLLL
L         MIM
LEMI      MINM

[Proxima]

Apologies, there was a typo in the previous list. LIMENG was the koan asked and this was (correctly) marked black, but I typoed it as LIMEING, which would be white. I've fixed this by adding both to the lists.

[namida]

LEM
EMM
MIN
ING

(EDIT: Removed "MMI" as I noticed that one is already on the list.)

[WillLem]

I assure you it's not a red herring 

Haha

Note that EEEI disproves Will's rule guess.

Not so much. The guess is 4 letters or more, then either at least 2 Ms or at least 1 vowel.

Can rules have either/or statements?

[namida]

I assure you it's not a red herring 

Haha

Note that EEEI disproves Will's rule guess.

Not so much. The guess is 4 letters or more, then either at least 2 Ms or at least 1 vowel.

Can rules have either/or statements?

Rules can have either/or statements, they can be as complex as the host wants (although simple but creative rules tend to be the best ones). They just can't depend on external factors like "who posted them" etc, unless that external factor could be explained without referring to external factors - for example, you could have "must contain the spelling of a single-digit integer" because although "the spelling of single digit integers" is external knowledge, you could redefine this rule as simply "must contain one of the following exact substrings: ONE, TWO, ...".

However, EEEI does indeed disprove your guess, because EEEI is four letters or more, and does contain either two Ms or at least one vowel (specifically, the latter). By your guess, this koan would be white; but it is actually black.

Keep in mind that disproving a guess simply requires the host to present a koan that your guess vs their official rule, would judge differently. It does not matter whether the actual rule or your guess is the one that marks it as white.

[WillLem]

Rules can have either/or statements

Thanks for clarifying, and for the additional info regarding rules.

However, EEEI does indeed disprove your guess, because ... By your guess, this koan would be white; but it is actually black.

Ah, whoops. I didn't notice that it was in the list of black koans!

[Proxima]

namida's new guesses are all black:

White koans:
CUDDLE        LEMMINGE      MMING
EMMING        LEMMINGFISH   MMMI
FISH          LEMMINGS      MMMO
FISHING       LIMEING       PARALLELOGRAM
FISHLEMMING   LMMNG
FLSH          MAGIC
FMSH          MIMIMIM
HISH          MLEINGM
LEMMING       MMEMM

Black koans:
EE        L          LLLLLLL
EEE       LEM        MIM
EEEI      LEMI       MIN
EEING     LEMING     MINM
EI        LIME       MM
EISH      LIMEN      MMI
EMM       LIMENG     MMIN
FSH       LLL        MMM
GISH      LLLI
ING       LLLLLL

[Proxima]

Wondering if I made this too hard and people would like a hint or two.

[WillLem]

Wondering if I made this too hard and people would like a hint or two.

Yeah, a hint would be good. I'm always happy to work with hints though, others might want to wait a bit longer.

[Simon]

I have found some patterns and would prefer to continue without hints yet. I still have yet-unresearched ideas.

MMMM
EEEE
FFFF
FFFI
GGGG
GGGI

Expectation: I expect the 4 M's to be white, the 4 F's to be white, the 4 E's to be black, and the 4 G's to be black.

If this expectation turns out true, then I'd like to test all 26 4-letter words with all-identical characters. I'll then call a letter heavy iff its 4-letter all-identical-letters word is white. Then I'll guess: AKHTBN iff it is at least 4 letters long, and it contains at least 2 heavy letters.


If the expectation turns out false:

New expectation: I expect FFFI to be white, GGGI to be black.

If this new expectation turns out true, then I'd like to test all 26 4-letter words of the form xxxI where the 3 x are all-identical characters, and the letter I is fixed at the end. (I.e., I'd like to test AAAI, BBBI, ..., ZZZI.) I'll then call a letter x heavy iff xxxI is white. Then I'll guess: AKHTBN iff it is at least 4 letters long, and it contains at least 2 heavy letters.

I'll see if I want hints after all this; I expect to find more patterns from this first.

-- Simon