Zendo, play by forum

grams88 · May 28, 2016, 09:01:47 PM

qqqqq
mmmmm
ooooo

Dullstar · May 29, 2016, 05:31:24 AM

As has been pointed out, there's a counterexample for "containing any letter contained in HILBERT" but there is not a counterexample for the length being a Hilbert number (incidentally I just learned what those are today, since I decided to look it up), so I figured I'll provide one: ADENINE (length 7) is white.

A hint about the length of koans is available upon request.

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA AOXOA HACEP PEACH
AAACH BACEIBBDE HCAEP PECAH
AACAH BACEIDFGO IEACH PINEAPPEE
AAPAA BEACH LEACH PINEAPPLE
AAXAA CHEAP LEMON PONEAPPLE
ADENINE CODES NINEAPPLE POSTMODERNISM
AEACH ELPPAENIP OOXOO PPLEAPINE
AECAH GEART PANEAPPLE REACH
ANTHROPOGENICALLY GREAG PCEAH TAERG
AOXAO GREAT PEACE XAXAX

Black Koans
A CHERRY LEMMINGOLOGICAL PINEBANANA
AAAAA CHIPS LOOP PIZZA
AAAAH EA LOOPING PIZZAS
ABCDE EAEI LPPNP PLUM
ACCOMMODATIONISTS EAP MANGO PNPPL
ACEHP EAT MMMMM POMEGRANATE
AEAAH EEEEE NAMIDA PPAPP
AEIOU ELPPA NANA PPEPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYY EPCAH NANNA PPPPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ EPCHA ONMLE PPPPPAAAA
APE GGGAA OOOOO QQQQQ
APPLE GGGAE PEA QUEUING
APPLEPINE GREA PEAR REAT
ATEGR GREATWITHSTUFF PEN TANGO
AXXXA GRT PIN TRG
BANANA HHHHH PINE TRIBE
BARBER IEAE PINEAPPL XAAAX
BCDFG IIIII PINEAPPLEA XXAXX
CASH INEAPPLE PINEAPPLEE XXXXX
CHEAPS LEMMING PINEAPPLES

namida · May 29, 2016, 08:21:45 AM

As mentioned earlier, I don't think it's possible for an even-length koan to be white. This does fit with the earlier hints about how adding a single letter to a white koan will always make a black one; but adding a single letter to a black koan could make a white one. However, Dullstar did also mention there's a minimum length - so far, the shortest we have found is five letters long. I would assume the hint doesn't intend to merely rule out the empty koan, but would at least suggest that no single-letter koan can be white. We don't have any three-letter koans that are white yet, but I wouldn't be prepared to rule them out at this stage.

At a glance (there might be something I missed) it also appears that if a koan is white, the same koan in reverse is also white. This leads me to believe it has something to do with symmetry in some way.

I'd also believe it's something to do with the vowel / consonant structure. In particular, look at "BACEIBBDE" and "BACEIDFGO". These both follow the same consonant / vowel structure as PINEAPPLE, just with different letters - the former takes into account repetition (ie: "P" is always replaced with "B"), while the latter does not (ie: every consonant is replaced with another, unique consonant; and every vowel with another, unique vowel).

However, unless it's nothing to do with vowels and consonants directly, and simply a matter of specific letters with the vowels just happening to fall into the pattern correctly (or perhaps that it doesn't have to match 100%), there are counterexamples to it being this simple - "AACAH" comes to mind. (I chose to use this as the example and not "AAACH", in case it's relative (ie: VV can match CC, but eg. CCV couldn't match CVC).)

Let's try something.

PINEBPPLE
PINEEPPLE
PINEXPPLE
PINEOPPLE
PINEYPPLE

Dullstar · May 29, 2016, 12:39:08 PM

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA BACEIBBDE IEACH PINEAPPLE
AAACH BACEIDFGO LEACH PINEEPPLE
AACAH BEACH LEMON PINEOPPLE
AAPAA CHEAP NINEAPPLE PONEAPPLE
AAXAA CODES OOXOO POSTMODERNISM
ADENINE ELPPAENIP PANEAPPLE PPLEAPINE
AEACH GEART PCEAH REACH
AECAH GREAG PEACE TAERG
ANTHROPOGENICALLY GREAT PEACH XAXAX
AOXAO HACEP PECAH
AOXOA HCAEP PINEAPPEE

Black Koans
A CHIPS LOOPING PINEYPPLE
AAAAA EA LPPNP PIZZA
AAAAH EAEI MANGO PIZZAS
ABCDE EAP MMMMM PLUM
ACCOMMODATIONISTS EAT NAMIDA PNPPL
ACEHP EEEEE NANA POMEGRANATE
AEAAH ELPPA NANNA PPAPP
AEIOU EPCAH ONMLE PPEPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYY EPCHA OOOOO PPPPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ GGGAA PEA PPPPPAAAA
APE GGGAE PEAR QQQQQ
APPLE GREA PEN QUEUING
APPLEPINE GREATWITHSTUFF PIN REAT
ATEGR GRT PINE TANGO
AXXXA HHHHH PINEAPPL TRG
BANANA IEAE PINEAPPLEA TRIBE
BARBER IIIII PINEAPPLEE XAAAX
BCDFG INEAPPLE PINEAPPLES XXAXX
CASH LEMMING PINEBANANA XXXXX
CHEAPS LEMMINGOLOGICAL PINEBPPLE
CHERRY LOOP PINEXPPLE

Here's some information about the koan "PINEYPPLE" that is only to prevent any misunderstandings and not intended as a hint:
As you may recall, the rule last time I hosted was the fairly quickly identified "AKHTBN iff it alternates between vowels and consonants, e.g. BANANA."
This rule did have one minor gray area that never came up: how to handle the letter Y. I believe the round immediately prior to this rule also had an affected rule.
While PINEYPPLE would definitely be black under my previous rule, for the purposes of consistency, I would have evaluated the letter Y as a consonant regardless of the use. That will remain true in any rounds I host in which the vowel/consonant structure matters. Unfortunately, I cannot tell you whether or not this rule would be affected by the vowel/consonant status of Y, as that would be too big of a hint.

Also, I'm just going to go ahead and give the hint about koan length, since I feel it may be unreasonable to identify due to that specific portion being overly arbitrary:

Spoiler

I've actually arbitrarily defined the minimum koan length in the rule, since I felt that, while shorter koans could potentially uphold the letter of the rule, they violated its spirit; so a provision was added explicitly excluding them. At least one koan has been guessed that would have been white if it were not for this provision. There would still be a minimum length without this provision, but it would be shorter.

There's a second reason I did this as well, but I won't reveal it until after the rule is identified.

Proxima · May 29, 2016, 03:04:09 PM

AAAAAAAAA (nine)
BBBBBBBBB (nine)
AAACA
CCCAC
CCCCA

Gronkling · May 29, 2016, 03:14:59 PM

AXA

AAAXAAA
AXAXAXA

AAXAXAXAA
AXAAXAAXA
AAXAXAAXA
AAAXXXAAA

Dullstar · May 30, 2016, 03:40:09 AM

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA ANTHROPOGENICALLY GREAG PEACH
AAACA AOXAO GREAT PECAH
AAACH AOXOA HACEP PINEAPPEE
AAAXAAA AXAAXAAXA HCAEP PINEAPPLE
AACAH AXAXAXA IEACH PINEEPPLE
AAPAA BACEIBBDE LEACH PINEOPPLE
AAXAA BACEIDFGO LEMON PONEAPPLE
AAXAXAAXA BEACH NINEAPPLE POSTMODERNISM
AAXAXAXAA CHEAP OOXOO PPLEAPINE
ADENINE CODES PANEAPPLE REACH
AEACH ELPPAENIP PCEAH TAERG
AECAH GEART PEACE XAXAX

Black Koans
A CASH INEAPPLE PINEBANANA
AAAAA CCCAC LEMMING PINEBPPLE
AAAAAAAAA CCCCA LEMMINGOLOGICAL PINEXPPLE
AAAAH CHEAPS LOOP PINEYPPLE
AAAXXXAAA CHERRY LOOPING PIZZA
ABCDE CHIPS LPPNP PIZZAS
ACCOMMODATIONISTS EA MANGO PLUM
ACEHP EAEI MMMMM PNPPL
AEAAH EAP NAMIDA POMEGRANATE
AEIOU EAT NANA PPAPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYY EEEEE NANNA PPEPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ ELPPA ONMLE PPPPP
APE EPCAH OOOOO PPPPPAAAA
APPLE EPCHA PEA QQQQQ
APPLEPINE GGGAA PEAR QUEUING
ATEGR GGGAE PEN REAT
AXA GREA PIN TANGO
AXXXA GREATWITHSTUFF PINE TRG
BANANA GRT PINEAPPL TRIBE
BARBER HHHHH PINEAPPLEA XAAAX
BBBBBBBBB IEAE PINEAPPLEE XXAXX
BCDFG IIIII PINEAPPLES XXXXX

grams88 · May 30, 2016, 01:31:57 PM

(Maybe we might be best looking at the earlier koan list when there was only one or two white koans)

WinterBanana
Computers

Dullstar · May 30, 2016, 10:34:03 PM

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA ANTHROPOGENICALLY GREAG PEACH
AAACA AOXAO GREAT PECAH
AAACH AOXOA HACEP PINEAPPEE
AAAXAAA AXAAXAAXA HCAEP PINEAPPLE
AACAH AXAXAXA IEACH PINEEPPLE
AAPAA BACEIBBDE LEACH PINEOPPLE
AAXAA BACEIDFGO LEMON PONEAPPLE
AAXAXAAXA BEACH NINEAPPLE POSTMODERNISM
AAXAXAXAA CHEAP OOXOO PPLEAPINE
ADENINE CODES PANEAPPLE REACH
AEACH ELPPAENIP PCEAH TAERG
AECAH GEART PEACE XAXAX

Black Koans
A CCCAC LEMMING PINEXPPLE
AAAAA CCCCA LEMMINGOLOGICAL PINEYPPLE
AAAAAAAAA CHEAPS LOOP PIZZA
AAAAH CHERRY LOOPING PIZZAS
AAAXXXAAA CHIPS LPPNP PLUM
ABCDE COMPUTERS MANGO PNPPL
ACCOMMODATIONISTS EA MMMMM POMEGRANATE
ACEHP EAEI NAMIDA PPAPP
AEAAH EAP NANA PPEPP
AEIOU EAT NANNA PPPPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYY EEEEE ONMLE PPPPPAAAA
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ ELPPA OOOOO QQQQQ
APE EPCAH PEA QUEUING
APPLE EPCHA PEAR REAT
APPLEPINE GGGAA PEN TANGO
ATEGR GGGAE PIN TRG
AXA GREA PINE TRIBE
AXXXA GREATWITHSTUFF PINEAPPL WINTERBANANA
BANANA GRT PINEAPPLEA XAAAX
BARBER HHHHH PINEAPPLEE XXAXX
BBBBBBBBB IEAE PINEAPPLES XXXXX
BCDFG IIIII PINEBANANA
CASH INEAPPLE PINEBPPLE

grams88 · June 03, 2016, 12:06:06 AM

Killerapple
Forum
Design
Kebab

Dullstar · June 03, 2016, 07:41:08 AM

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA AOXAO GREAT PEACH
AAACA AOXOA HACEP PECAH
AAACH AXAAXAAXA HCAEP PINEAPPEE
AAAXAAA AXAXAXA IEACH PINEAPPLE
AACAH BACEIBBDE KEBAB PINEEPPLE
AAPAA BACEIDFGO KILLERAPPLE PINEOPPLE
AAXAA BEACH LEACH PONEAPPLE
AAXAXAAXA CHEAP LEMON POSTMODERNISM
AAXAXAXAA CODES NINEAPPLE PPLEAPINE
ADENINE ELPPAENIP OOXOO REACH
AEACH FORUM PANEAPPLE TAERG
AECAH GEART PCEAH XAXAX
ANTHROPOGENICALLY GREAG PEACE

Black Koans
A CCCAC INEAPPLE PINEBPPLE
AAAAA CCCCA LEMMING PINEXPPLE
AAAAAAAAA CHEAPS LEMMINGOLOGICAL PINEYPPLE
AAAAH CHERRY LOOP PIZZA
AAAXXXAAA CHIPS LOOPING PIZZAS
ABCDE COMPUTERS LPPNP PLUM
ACCOMMODATIONISTS DESIGN MANGO PNPPL
ACEHP EA MMMMM POMEGRANATE
AEAAH EAEI NAMIDA PPAPP
AEIOU EAP NANA PPEPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYY EAT NANNA PPPPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ EEEEE ONMLE PPPPPAAAA
APE ELPPA OOOOO QQQQQ
APPLE EPCAH PEA QUEUING
APPLEPINE EPCHA PEAR REAT
ATEGR GGGAA PEN TANGO
AXA GGGAE PIN TRG
AXXXA GREA PINE TRIBE
BANANA GREATWITHSTUFF PINEAPPL WINTERBANANA
BARBER GRT PINEAPPLEA XAAAX
BBBBBBBBB HHHHH PINEAPPLEE XXAXX
BCDFG IEAE PINEAPPLES XXXXX
CASH IIIII PINEBANANA

Colorful Arty · June 03, 2016, 05:58:00 PM

Hexakosioihexekontahexaphobiacs

Dullstar · June 04, 2016, 06:02:20 AM

White Koans
AAAAXAAAA AOXAO GREAT PEACH
AAACA AOXOA HACEP PECAH
AAACH AXAAXAAXA HCAEP PINEAPPEE
AAAXAAA AXAXAXA IEACH PINEAPPLE
AACAH BACEIBBDE KEBAB PINEEPPLE
AAPAA BACEIDFGO KILLERAPPLE PINEOPPLE
AAXAA BEACH LEACH PONEAPPLE
AAXAXAAXA CHEAP LEMON POSTMODERNISM
AAXAXAXAA CODES NINEAPPLE PPLEAPINE
ADENINE ELPPAENIP OOXOO REACH
AEACH FORUM PANEAPPLE TAERG
AECAH GEART PCEAH XAXAX
ANTHROPOGENICALLY GREAG PEACE

Black Koans
A CCCAC IIIII PINEBANANA
AAAAA CCCCA INEAPPLE PINEBPPLE
AAAAAAAAA CHEAPS LEMMING PINEXPPLE
AAAAH CHERRY LEMMINGOLOGICAL PINEYPPLE
AAAXXXAAA CHIPS LOOP PIZZA
ABCDE COMPUTERS LOOPING PIZZAS
ACCOMMODATIONISTS DESIGN LPPNP PLUM
ACEHP EA MANGO PNPPL
AEAAH EAEI MMMMM POMEGRANATE
AEIOU EAP NAMIDA PPAPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYY EAT NANA PPEPP
AEIOUXXXXYYYYZZZZ EEEEE NANNA PPPPP
APE ELPPA ONMLE PPPPPAAAA
APPLE EPCAH OOOOO QQQQQ
APPLEPINE EPCHA PEA QUEUING
ATEGR GGGAA PEAR REAT
AXA GGGAE PEN TANGO
AXXXA GREA PIN TRG
BANANA GREATWITHSTUFF PINE TRIBE
BARBER GRT PINEAPPL WINTERBANANA
BBBBBBBBB HEXAKOSIOIHEXEKONTAHEXAPHOBIACS PINEAPPLEA XAAAX
BCDFG HHHHH PINEAPPLEE XXAXX
CASH IEAE PINEAPPLES XXXXX

Proxima · June 04, 2016, 09:36:39 AM

Ugh. The list is impossible to read now, and in any case I've run out of ideas. Now this is the time when it's appropriate to give us some helpful hints.

grams88 · June 04, 2016, 11:38:15 PM

Something must of happened to that list, as it looks like it has crashed. lol