Zendo, play by forum

Started by Simon, August 25, 2014, 01:33:33 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Dullstar


namida

White Koans
BANA          CAKE          NANANAN       XOXOXOX       
BANANA        DANANA        PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOXO     
BANANAB       EARS          PIRATE                     
BANANANANA    MELON         PIRATES                     
BANANAS       NANANA        RATES                       


Black Koans
ANANAN        BAR           DRUG          OXOXOXOX     
APPLE         BARS          FISH          RAT           
BA            BIRD          MOUSE         RATS         
BAN           CAT           ORANGE        STEAM         
BANDANA       DOG           OXOXOXO                     
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Dullstar


namida

White Koans
BANA          CAKE          NANANAN       RATES         
BANANA        DANANA        PINE          XOXOXOX       
BANANAB       EARS          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOXO     
BANANANANA    MELON         PIRATE                     
BANANAS       NANANA        PIRATES                     


Black Koans
ANANAN        BARS          FISH          OXOXOXOX     
APPLE         BIRD          MOUSE         PI           
BA            CAR           OPERA         PIN           
BAN           CAT           ORAN          RAT           
BANDANA       DOG           ORANGE        RATS         
BAR           DRUG          OXOXOXO       STEAM         
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Proxima


namida

White Koans
BANA          BANO          MELON         PIRATE       
BANANA        CAKE          NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANAB       DANANA        NANANAN       RATES         
BANANANANA    EAR           PINE          XOXOXOX       
BANANAS       EARS          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOXO     


Black Koans
ANANAN        BAR           DRUG          OXOXOXOX     
APPLE         BARS          FISH          PI           
BA            BIRD          MOUSE         PIN           
BAN           CAK           OPERA         RAT           
BANB          CAR           ORAN          RATS         
BANDANA       CAT           ORANGE        STEAM         
BANN          DOG           OXOXOXO                     
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Dullstar

I'm doing a bit of a "thinking post" here, and am putting down my thought process since there's a chance, albeit small, that my random thoughts might help someone figure it out.

Based on the hint,
Spoiler
It is impossible to make a black koan by adding extra letters to the end of a white koan.
I've made an abridged white koan list.
Because of this hint, knowing, for instance, that PINE is white means that PINEAPPLE gives no extra information, so my abridged list includes PINE but excludes PINEAPPLE.

I do not guarantee I didn't accidentally miss one.
Spoiler
BANA
BAND

CAKE
EARS
MELON
NANANA
PINE
PIRATE
RATES
The bolded koans will become black if their last letter is removed.


Also based on the hint, I can conclude that the following koans are black (this is probably not helpful information):
Spoiler
A
B
C
D
F
M
O
P
R
S
because, if any of them were white, any koan starting with them would have to also be white. Generalizing this list,
Spoiler
the first letter of any black koan is itself a black koan

Me rephrasing the hint in my own words in the hopes that it might help me think:
Spoiler
A white koan cannot under any circumstances become black by adding more letters, but a black koan can become white by adding letters.

Based on my abridged koan list, I will try to determine what the shortest form of each white koan is.

EA
MELO
MEL
ME
NANAN
NANA
NAN
NA
PIRAT
PIRA
PIR
RATE

namida

White Koans
BANA          EA            NANANAN       RATE         
BANANA        EARS          PINE          RATES         
BANANAB       MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
BANANANANA    MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     
BANANAS       NANA          PIRAT                      
CAKE          NANAN         PIRATE                     
DANANA        NANANA        PIRATES                     


Black Koans
ANANAN        CAR           NA            PIN           
APPLE         CAT           NAN           PIR           
BA            DOG           OPERA         RAT           
BAN           DRUG          ORAN          RATS         
BANDANA       FISH          ORANGE        STEAM         
BAR           ME            OXOXOXO                     
BARS          MEL           OXOXOXOX                   
BIRD          MOUSE         PI                         




EDIT: I notice that this list was missing the koans from the previous post. Here's a complete list, though it doesn't have anything bolded.
I have also included those which Dullstar concluded (correctly) would be black.
Spoiler
White Koans
BANA          DANANA        NANAN         PIRATE       
BANANA        EA            NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANAB       EAR           NANANAN       RATE         
BANANANANA    EARS          PINE          RATES         
BANANAS       MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
BANO          MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     
CAKE          NANA          PIRAT                       


Black Koans
A             BIRD          ME            P             
ANANAN        C             MEL           PI           
APPLE         CAK           MOUSE         PIN           
B             CAR           NA            PIR           
BA            CAT           NAN           R             
BAN           D             O             RAT           
BANB          DOG           OPERA         RATS         
BANDANA       DRUG          ORAN          S             
BANN          F             ORANGE        STEAM         
BAR           FISH          OXOXOXO                     
BARS          M             OXOXOXOX                   

My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Dullstar

Updated abridged white koan listing:
BANA
BANO
CAKE
EA
MELO
NANA
PINE
PIRA
RATE

I don't believe any of those can be shrunk down any further without becoming black koans.
Well, maybe EA, but I'd be surprised.

---

LEMMINGS
TRAIN
RESTAURANT
FACADE
E

namida

White Koans
BANA          DANANA        NANA          PIRAT         
BANANA        EA            NANAN         PIRATE       
BANANAB       EAR           NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANANANA    EARS          NANANAN       RATE         
BANANAS       FACADE        PINE          RATES         
BANO          MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
CAKE          MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     


Black Koans
A             C             ME            PI           
ANANAN        CAK           MEL           PIN           
APPLE         CAR           MOUSE         PIR           
B             CAT           NA            R             
BA            D             NAN           RAT           
BAN           DOG           O             RATS         
BANB          DRUG          OPERA         RESTAURANT   
BANDANA       E             ORAN          S             
BANN          F             ORANGE        STEAM         
BAR           FISH          OXOXOXO       TRAIN         
BARS          LEMMINGS      OXOXOXOX                   
BIRD          M             P                           
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Proxima

My thoughts on the possible shape of the rule:
Spoiler
So far, it looks as if the rule depends only on vowels and consonants, i.e. there are no pairs with the same vowel-consonant structure and different Buddha-nature. This may be disproved by later additions. If it is correct, then all 1-letter koans are black.

The rule must be asymmetric as regards front and back of the koan, since adding to the end of white cannot produce black, but adding to the beginning of white can (example: XOXOXOX and OXOXOXOX).

The hint suggests the rule is positive, i.e. a koan is white if it includes some feature. If so, then this feature may manifest in a 2-letter koan (EA).

Vowels seem to be "preferred" -- EA is white, BANA is white but FISH black. This suggests something like "a koan is white if some substring starting from the front is at least half vowels", but this does not fit all examples so far (OXOXOXO is black).

namida

QuoteIf it is correct, then all 1-letter koans are black.
They indeed are.

The rest is either thought process or an observation that can be deduced from the existing lists, so I won't say anything in regards to it. :)
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Proxima

Some more guesses, then.

BAA
BB
BBB
BBA
ABA
ABBA

namida

White Koans
BANA          DANANA        NANA          PIRAT         
BANANA        EA            NANAN         PIRATE       
BANANAB       EAR           NANANA        PIRATES       
BANANANANA    EARS          NANANAN       RATE         
BANANAS       FACADE        PINE          RATES         
BANO          MELO          PINEAPPLE     XOXOXOX       
CAKE          MELON         PIRA          XOXOXOXO     


Black Koans
A             BARS          F             OXOXOXO       
ABA           BB            FISH          OXOXOXOX     
ABBA          BBA           LEMMINGS      P             
ANANAN        BBB           M             PI           
APPLE         BIRD          ME            PIN           
B             C             MEL           PIR           
BA            CAK           MOUSE         R             
BAA           CAR           NA            RAT           
BAN           CAT           NAN           RATS         
BANB          D             O             RESTAURANT   
BANDANA       DOG           OPERA         S             
BANN          DRUG          ORAN          STEAM         
BAR           E             ORANGE        TRAIN         
My projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)
Non-Lemmings: Commander Keen: Galaxy Reimagined (a Commander Keen fangame)

Dullstar

FACAD
FACA
FAC
FA

Something that I've noticed is that all of the shortest possible forms of white koans never have 2 consecutive consonants, but can have 2 consecutive vowels.  However, with the fact that adding to the end of a koan cannot make it black, it would seem there must be some way of determining the cutoff.  I'm not sure if I'm on to anything, or if my observation is a complete coincidence.  There are also black koans lack 2 consecutive consonants. (e.g. OPERA)