[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten using only the new skills?

[namida]

As I'm sure most of you know, the V1.15n update of NeoLemmix added a few new skill types. As of V1.15n-B, you can also force a level to use a specific skillset. So, here's the challenge for each level:

1) Can the level be beaten with only the new skills? (the code to enter on ForceSkillset option is AD51 (V1.17n or newer) or AD50 (V1.16n-B or earlier))
2) If so, assuming an X-of-everything skillset, what is the lowest X the level can be beaten with?
3) Finally, under such conditions, what is the highest % that can be saved?

Just to be clear - that's the order of priority. Highest priority is just beating the level full stop. If that's doable, next priority is to find the smallest X for which it's doable with an X-of-each-new-skill skillset. Once that's been found, the highest % obtainable with said X-of-each skillset is the last task.


<em>Just for reference, on how to set this up:

1) Download <a href="index4265.html?topic=911.0" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">NeoLemmix</a>. Use the latest version if possible; at any rate you definitely need at least V1.15n-B or higher for this topic; but V1.17n+ is recommended due to an additional skill being added in V1.17n.
2) Run the player in question at least once.
3) In the INI file, set ChallengeMode to 1 and ForceSkillset to AD51 (or AD50 if you're using a version older than V1.17n)

You'll notice you start the level with 0 of each skill. This is normal; that's how Challenge Mode works - instead of your skills being limited, you have unlimited skills and it counts how many you use. The reason you need to use Challenge Mode is because obviously, the already-existing levels have 0 of each of the new skills.</em>

<em>Note: Do not use V1.15n-B for the packs where the levels were not yet properly NeoLemmix-converted in that version. In other words, you must use V1.16n or higher for Oh No! More Lemmings!, Holiday Lemmings 94, the Extra Levels, and Lemmings Plus II.</em>

<strong>Keep in mind that these skills are still very new, and as such, may have glitches. Cloner and Glider especially may be vunerable to glitches.</strong>

<span style="font-size: 14pt;" class="bbc_size"><strong>Original Lemmings</strong></span>
<strong>Fun</strong>
Fun 2 - 90% with 1 of everything
Fun 3 - 98% with 1 of everything
Fun 7 - 100% with 1 of everything
Fun 8 - 99% with 1 of everything
Fun 10 - 100% with 1 of everything
Fun 11 - 98% with 11 of everything
Fun 13 - 100% with 1 of everything
Fun 14 - 12 of everything (no % recorded)
Fun 15 - 97% with 12 of everything
Fun 16 - 11 of everything (no % recorded)
Fun 18 - 98% with 1 of everything
Fun 19 - 5 of everything (no % recorded)
Fun 20 - 96% with 8 of everything
Fun 24 - 96% with 2 of everything
Fun 26 - 100% with 4 of everything
Fun 27 - 98% with 1 of everything
Fun 28 - 97% with 11 of everything
Fun 30 - 96% with 2 of everything

<strong>Tricky</strong>
Tricky 1 - 4 of everything (no % recorded)
Tricky 2 - 100% with 1 of everything
Tricky 3 - 100% with 5 of everything
Tricky 4 - 100% with 8 of everything
Tricky 6 - 80% with 4 of everything
Tricky 7 - 96% with 7 of everything
Tricky 9 - 97% with 3 of everything
Tricky 12 - 96% with 2 of everything
Tricky 13 - 94% with 3 of everything
Tricky 18 - 90% with 1 of everything
Tricky 19 - 100% with 1 of everything
Tricky 22 - 99% with 1 of everything
Tricky 29 - 99% with 1 of everything

<strong>Taxing</strong>
Taxing 2 - 97% with 5 of everything
Taxing 9 - 100% with 1 of everything
Taxing 10 - 100% with 5 of everything
Taxing 14 - 98% with 14 of everything
Taxing 15 - 98% with 10 of everything
Taxing 16 - 99% with 3 of everything
Taxing 19 - 98% with 1 of everything
Taxing 21 - 100% with 5 of everything
Taxing 22 - 100% with 3 of everything
Taxing 24 - 99% with 1 of everything
Taxing 27 - 78% with 5 of everything
Taxing 28 - 98% with 3 of everything
Taxing 30 - 100% with 1 of everything

<strong>Mayhem</strong>
Mayhem 1 - 96% with 17 of everything
Mayhem 6 - 100% with 6 of everything
Mayhem 8 - 91% with 12 of everything
Mayhem 10 - 98% with 7 of everything
Mayhem 11 - 100% with 1 of everything
Mayhem 13 - 100% with 4 of everything
Mayhem 14 - 97% with 10 of everything
Mayhem 15 - 96% with 11 of everything
Mayhem 16 - 100% with 6 of everything
Mayhem 17 - 100% with 6 of everything
Mayhem 18 - 95% with 10 of everything
Mayhem 21 - 100% with 9 of everything
Mayhem 27 - 100% with 6 of everything
Mayhem 29 - 100% with 5 of everything
Mayhem 30 - 96% with 25 of everything

<span style="font-size: 14pt;" class="bbc_size"><strong>Oh No! More Lemmings!</strong></span>
<strong>Tame</strong>
Tame 1 - 60% with 6 of each
Tame 2 - 100% with 2 of each
Tame 4 - 98% with 2 of each
Tame 7 - 94% with 9 of each
Tame 8 - 96% with 1 of each
Tame 9 - 100% with 2 of each
Tame 13 - 100% with 2 of each
Tame 14 - 100% with 4 of each
Tame 15 - 100% with 2 of each

<strong>Crazy</strong>
Crazy 2 - 100% with 6 of each
Crazy 3 - 96% with 2 of each
Crazy 4 - 100% with 4 of each
Crazy 5 - 100% with 4 of each
Crazy 6 - 100% with 14 of each
Crazy 7 - 100% with 26 of each
Crazy 10 - 98% with 16 of each
Crazy 11 - 50% with 1 of each
Crazy 13 - 70% with 2 of each
Crazy 14 - 92% with 3 of each
Crazy 15 - 98% with 1 of each

<strong>Wild</strong>
Wild 1: 96% with 5 of each
Wild 2: 97% with 13 of each
Wild 3: 96% with 6 of each
Wild 4: 100% with 7 of each
Wild 6: 100% with 4 of each
Wild 10: 95% with 6 of each
Wild 11: 98% with 5 of each
Wild 16: 100% with 11 of each
Wild 19: 96% with 12 of each
Wild 20: 96% with 1 of each

<strong>Wicked</strong>
Wicked 1: 96% with 2 of each
Wicked 3: 100% with 3 of each
Wicked 5: 100% with 1 of each
Wicked 8: 98% with 6 of each
Wicked 9: 96% with 7 of each
Wicked 10: 96% with 9 of each

[namida]

I've done most of Fun to start it off. There's a few more which should be possible but I couldn't be bothered trying - namely Fun 14, 15, 16, 19 and 28.

The lack of destructive skills is the biggest handicap. Builders are also a bit of a loss, though you can somewhat simulate them by using Stacker > Walker > repeat (sometimes with a Platformer before the next Stacker).

The result for Fun 30 was a pretty cool one.

[Minim]

Hey, this is a great idea for a challenge thread and would love to help out. However as there is no link to help me out as a challenger, I have no idea how to create these challenges. So where do I "enter AD50 on the forced skillset to get the 7 new skills only"? On the editor, or on the ini file? Should I update my NeoLemmix? BTW I don't have the original lvl files on my laptop either. Can you please help me?

Edit: OK I've got it now. I've figured out that you must download V1.15-B, and turn on Challenge Mode and CheatCodes for this challenge to work. Please mention that in the OP.

[namida]

You don't have to turn on cheat codes, but I'll mention the rest.

EDIT: Added the other We All Fall Downs, as the same solution works on all four.

[namida]

Here's a few more. The ones in bold are the ones I actually have a confirmed result for, others are just observations.

Tricky 1 - Should be possible using the Stacker-Walker-Platformer combo to substitute builders to get over the lump.
Tricky 2 - Same solution as Fun 13 works here.
Tricky 3 - Very easy 100% with 5 of each.
Tricky 4 - Very easy 100% with 8 of each. Not sure if less might be possible by good use of Stoners.
Tricky 6 - There's an obvious way to get 100% with 5 of each. But there's a not-so-obvious way to get 80% with 4 of each. Replay attached.
Tricky 7 - Fairly easy 96% with 7 of each. Use the mid-air stoner trick for the fall at the end.
Tricky 8 - Obviously possible, but probably requires a pretty large amount of skills.
Tricky 9 - Fairly easy 97% with 3 of each, again using mid-air stoners.
Tricky 10 - Again, should be quite easily possible, but will require a fairly large number of skills.
Tricky 12 - Very easy 96% with 2 of each.
Tricky 13 - Fairly easy 94% with 3 of each.
Tricky 14 - I have no doubt that it's possible, but it'll take a lot of skills. Minimum amount probably won't be a 100%, since I can see stoners being useful here in a similar way to Tricky 6.
Tricky 18 - Very easy 90% with 1 of each, same solution as on Fun 2.
Tricky 19 - Very easy 100% with 1 of each with the same solution as Fun 7.
Tricky 20 - Again, should be possible. Won't be a 100%, as you're going to want a stoner for surviving the drop off the one-way wall.
Tricky 22 - Easy 99% with 1 of each, same solution as Fun 8.
Tricky 29 - Easy 99% with 4 of each. In fact, 100% should be possible, but I've only confirmed 99%.

[namida]

Alright, here's a pretty challenging one!

Taxing 2, 97%, maximum 5 of each skill. (I think with 6 of each, you could do 100%, but minimizing the skill count takes priority over saving the highest possible % here, as long as you're at least reaching the requirement.) I do have a replay, but I might not post it just yet... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Remember that NeoLemmix uses the Amiga version levels, which means there's 100 lemmings in this level, so you're allowed to lose 3 for this. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />


Aside from that:

Taxing 1 - Should be possible.
Taxing 3 - Should be possible if the time limit doesn't say otherwise.
Taxing 7 - A similar solution to Tricky 4 should work if the time limit doesn't prevent it, but haven't tried yet.
Taxing 9 - Very easily 100%ed with 1 of each.
Taxing 10 - Very easily 100%ed with 5 of each, not sure if 4 of each is possible. Can't re-use the Tricky 6 solution as that only saved 80%.
Taxing 11 - Something similar to Tricky 7 should work, but more skills required due to the need for 100%. Probably need to direct drop to the exit, as you can't use stoners this time.
Taxing 14 - Definitely possible. Good luck finding anyone who can be bothered actually doing it.
Taxing 15 - This one too.
Taxing 16 - Very easy 99% with 3 of each.
Taxing 18 - Almost certain that Fun 11's solution should work here too, but I haven't tried it.
Taxing 19 - 98% with 1 of each. Which should work on Fun 18 too, actually.
Taxing 21 - 100% with 5 of each fairly easily. I can't find any way to do 4 - if the level allowed losing one lemming, it could be done, but it doesn't. (This did give me a nice idea for a trick to use in a custom level, though.)
Taxing 24 - So damn easy. 99% with 1 of each.
Taxing 25 - Fairly sure this should be possible, but not going to try and pull it off.
Taxing 27 - Also definitely possible.
Taxing 28 - 98% with 3 of each. There's several ways to do this, but both 2 skills, and 99% with 3 skills, seem impossible.
Taxing 29 - I'd be VERY surprised if the 100% solution from Tricky 3 doesn't work here.
Taxing 30 - 100% with 1 of each is confirmed possible for all 4 WAFDs.

[nobody]

What does the Mechanic skill do?

[namida]

What does the Mechanic skill do?

Deactivates traps. A single mechanic can deactivate as many traps as he encounters; but it does take him about 2.5 seconds to deactivate a trap (during which time the trap cannot kill other lemmings); he also cannot deactivate a trap if it's in the middle of killing a lemming when he reaches it. Once a mechanic deactivates a trap, that trap is permanently out of order.

There's a tutorial level pack included with NeoCustLemmix; it has one dedicated level for each skill which generally shows their main function, plus one puzzle level that also introduces a few new ideas, either because they just so happen to occur during the level (eg: gliders turning around at walls), or because you're pushed to try them because there seems to be no way without it (eg: swimmers changing directly to climbers) as well as being a, not overly challenging level but a decent puzzle.

[Proxima]

I haven't looked at the game yet, but is there any reason why Fun 27 / Taxing 22 can't be done with just one mid-air stoner?

[namida]

Mayhem 1 - No doubt that it's possible, but that bit at the end is going to take a LOT of skills to get up.
Mayhem 3 - Would be doable with 4 if it weren't for the time limit, possibly less if it weren't 100%. But seems impossible as-is.
Mayhem 6 - 100% requirement makes it a bit hard to minimize skills, the Tricky 9 route doesn't work due to that. I can do it with 7.
Mayhem 7 - Shouldn't be any reason the Fun 20 approach wouldn't work.
Mayhem 8 - Almost certianly possible, but it's another case of having to use the Stacker>Walker alternation to get really high.
Mayhem 10 - 98% with 7 of each. Might seem like you need 8 Platformers, but you can use a few placed-nearly-at-edge stackers for the last little bit, and still stay under 7 of both them and walkers.
Mayhem 11 - The usual 100% 1-of-each WAFD solution still works.
Mayhem 13 - Okay, I didn't actually do this one, but without the skillset being a factor, this level is completely identical to Fun 26, so I can say confidently enough to add it to the list: 100% with 4 of everything.
Mayhem 14 - 97% with 10 of each, might be improvable to 9 with well-placed stoners (and, if we're stuck with 10, then 98% with some better timing).
Mayhem 16 - 100% with 6 of each, quite simple.
Mayhem 17 - Very easy 100% with 6 of each.
Mayhem 18 - Definitely possible. Minimum set probably doesn't give 100%, as I see a lot of potential for stoners here.
Mayhem 21 - 100% with 9 of each. Probably not improvable due to the 100% requirement.
Mayhem 24 - NOT possible. The one pixel thing they start in is only escapable in Fun 30 because you can use a stoner there; the 100% requirement prevents that approach here.
Mayhem 25 - I would think Tricky 13's approach should work here.
Mayhem 27 - 100% with 6 of each. Exactly the same approach as Mayhem 16.
Mayhem 29 - 100% with 5 of each. The new skills actually make *this* level easier. O_O
Mayhem 30 - Should be possible.



Re: Fun 27 / Taxing 22, the answer is "no" for fun 27 (I just overlooked it) and "yes" for taxing 22 (100% requirement; NeoLemmix uses the Amiga version levels as a base - it would work if it was based off the DOS levels where the requirement is only 80%).


I'm thinking I might need to expand this challenge to allow (where impossible under normal circumstances) one destructive skill from the old skillset. Either that, or add a new destructive skill in the next NeoLemmix update, though I'm not exactly sure what kind it might be - but as far as formats and so on go, there's room for exactly one more skill to be added.

[Minim]

Again, you're very quick filling in the results. At least I will still be able to have a chance to post some of mine too.
I did some of the longer levels for you. Here's what I came up with for some of these levels (Well, the benchmark at least):

Fun 14: 12
Fun 15: 18, both by air platforming at the start.
Fun 16: 11
Fun 19: 5
Fun 28: 11

Tricky 1: 4

Taxing 2: 5 (96%)
Taxing 14: 14 (98%)
Taxing 15: 10 (98%)

Unfortunately for the first six results, I ignored the percentage and didn't realise that from the OP I had to record that as well.

[namida]

It's no worries. As I said - first priority is minimizing the skills (well, after confirming it's possible at all, but there are very few levels where possible or not can't be determined just by looking). Especially on these kinds of levels, it may be possible to cut them further - for example, one trick I've noticed but only used in Tricky 6 was make a lemming stack after turning around, then after six steps, make him a Stoner. This can be useful both to save Walkers if you're running high on those, or for walls that are slightly over 12 pixels high (the furthest you can get in a single Stacker-Walker combo).

For Taxing 2 though, not only had I done it, but I managed 97%. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Nice going on the others though... 5 for Fun 19 sounds quite impressive!


To give one example of using different tricks, here's Fun 15 with no more than 13 of each skill. It can probably be improved to 12, and there's definitely room for improvement on the % saved (for example, I could've saved one extra lemming very easily by making him a glider).

EDIT: And improved both! 12 of each skill max, and 97% saved. I don't think the skill count can be improved, 98% *might* be possible. 99% would definitely require an extra stacker, so 12 won't be possible on Taxing 1 (and that's without taking into account that I don't think there's enough time for this route either). Note a trick I've used here that I'm actually using quite often - rather than interrupting a stacker than containing the crowd, simply letting one lemming slip past while the stack is being built. No doubt said trick will become somewhat of a staple when I get around to making my next level pack.

[Minim]

Some more results, none being too difficult:

Taxing 22: 3 (100%)
Taxing 27: 5 (78%)
Mayhem 1: 17 (96%)
Mayhem 8: 12, 91% so far but the percentage can surely be improved with better crowd control. I think I controlled them in such a tight space because of the high release rate, and ended up with too many lemmings splatting after the second stoner down the wall.
Mayhem 15: 11 (96%)
Mayhem 18: 10 (95%)
Mayhem 30: 25 (96%) using 25 stackers & 24 platformers. 24 may be possible by stoning to complete the gap to the exit on the right side.

And for Fun 28, I saved 97% http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[namida]

Nicely done! Added them to the main post.

Note that NeoLemmix V1.16n has now been released, which has some implications for this topic. Specifically:
1) The Glider glitches are fixed, so solutions that were prevented by those may now be possible.
2) OhNo, H94, Extra and LPII conversions are now done, so we can start on them too.

[Minim]

2) OhNo, H94, Extra and LPII conversions are now done, so we can start on them too.

Really? OK then. I've just downloaded the OhNo version so we'll do that next I think.
And straightaway I found something quite amazing while solving with the new skills. I've solved the first level! (Not something you hear every day is it? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />) I've done it by nuking down the floor in the middle. So we do have a ground-removing skill after all, despite being an EXTREMELY unreliable one at that. My overall result, 60% with 6 per skill.

As for the rest of the first 10 Tame levels:
2: 2 per skill (100%)
4: 2 per skill (98%)
7: 9 per skill (94%)
8: 1 per skill (96%)
9: 2 per skill (100%)

7 and 8 make good challenges, but on the other hand 7 might be improvable.