[NeoLemmix] Which levels can be beaten using only the new skills?

[namida]

I must say that using the nuke never crossed my mind. I'll have to see whether there's any levels in Orig where this may make a difference - in particular, it might be interesting to see what happens if the "Surviving Bombers" gimmick is also used. (Put either 4211 or 00000800 in Forced Gimmick - there's no difference between the two, one's just using the old format fixed codes, and the other is using the newer custom gimmick combinations). This still only allows the use of the nuke once per level.

[namida]

So I decided I'll finish off Tame.

Tame 13 - 98% with 2 of each is quite obvious. But not so obvious, 100% with 2 of each. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Replay attached.
Tame 14 - 100% with 4 of each, pretty simple.
Tame 15 - 100% with 2 of each, very simple.
Tame 17 - Doesn't seem to be possible; the best nuke solution I can find only saves 22% (level requires 50%).

The other ones are all very clearly impossible.


EDIT: Also, I'll put this up here now. Here's my 97%-with-5-of-each solution for Taxing 2.

[nobody]

How do I load replays in Lemmix Player Neo? Shift+R doesn't work.

EDIT: Never Mind, it's L

[namida]

How do I load replays in Lemmix Player Neo? Shift+R doesn't work.

EDIT: Never Mind, it's L

Shift+R only applies to playtest mode in the Lemmix editor. In all Lemmix players (Neo or not), it's L.

[namida]

Crazy 2 - 100% with 6 of each. Might be improvable to 5.
Crazy 3 - Very simple 96% with 2 of each; I don't think either part is improvable.
Crazy 4 - 100% with 4 of each, moderate difficulty.
Crazy 5 - 100% with 4 of each, very easy.
Crazy 6 - 100% with 14 of each, pretty obvious, the one thing that might not cross your mind immediately is the need to use a glider.
Crazy 7 - Probably possible, but I am NOT going to try. My theory would be the usual tricks to get out of the starting area, then use a well-placed glider to get down and build a safe landing.
Crazy 10 - Should be possible, but I don't particularly care to try that wall on the left.
Crazy 11 - A very easy 50% with 1 of each.
Crazy 13 - 70% with 2 of each, this one is a little bit tricky but not overly hard.
Crazy 14 - Definitely possible.
Crazy 15 - Very easy 98% with 1 of each.
Crazy 18 - Another definitely-possible-but-verybothersome-looking one.

[Minim]

OK, some of the longer levels results

7: 26 (So far, you need 15 stackers to reach the top of the wall, plus 2 for crowd control and release, and finally another 9 to create a safety net from the overhang, though it may be possible with less if I could find a way to get the lemming to glide to that brick wall to the right of the exit)
10: 16 (98%)
14: 3 (92%) A great puzzle here!
18: Absolutely impossible. 3 minutes isn't enough for me to get over the lollipops and then run all the way to the exit.

[namida]

Added them to the main post.

By the way, just released a V1.16n-B update to NeoLemmix. There's no major need to update for this topic; the changes don't really affect the official game players, they're more relevant to level designers than playing existing levels.

[Minim]

Some results for Wild and the first half of Wicked.

Wild 1: 5 (96%)
Wild 2: 13 (97%)
Wild 3: 6 (96%)
Wild 4: 7 (100%)
Wild 6: 4 (100%)
Wild 10: 6 (95%)
Wild 11: 5 (98%)
Wild 16: 11 (100%)
Wild 19: 12 (96%)
Wild 20: 1 (96%)

Wicked 1: 2 (96%)
Wicked 3: 3 (100%)
Wicked 5: 1 (100%)
Wicked 8: 6 (98%)
Wicked 9: 7 (96%)
Wicked 10: 9 (96%)

Replay attached for Wild 4, and also for Wild 1 if anyone wants to request it.

Edit: Done the rest of Wicked.

12: 7 (97%)
13: 14 (98%)
14: 3 (98%)
15: 7 (94%)
16: 1 (83%)
17: 2 (96%)
18: 5 (96%)
19: 4 (90%)
20: 2 (98%)

The trick to get to the end of Wicked 12 is similar to that of Wild 1, gliding on the terrain, turning round and platforming on the opposite edge, but it's a bit more tricky due to the terrain placement. Wicked 17 is also a good challenge, and as for Wicked 18, well... what a relief that we don't have to worry about hidden traps anymore! The Mechanic is just what the doctor ordered! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[Minim]

I'm thinking I might need to expand this challenge to allow (where impossible under normal circumstances) one destructive skill from the old skillset. Either that, or add a new destructive skill in the next NeoLemmix update, though I'm not exactly sure what kind it might be - but as far as formats and so on go, there's room for exactly one more skill to be added.

I didn't see this part of the thread until now, but I do like this idea of having another digging skill from the original skillset while keeping the others. May I find out the code for each of these skills?

[namida]

If you want to find out the code for any specific skillset, just start up the NeoLemmix Editor, and tick the boxes for the skillset you want. The four-digit code displayed down the bottom of that section is the code for the skillset you've selected. (It also similarly provides the 8-digit code for gimmick combinations)

But, for adding a destructive skill to the existing sets:
AF50 - Bombers
AD58 - Bashers
AD54 - Miners
AD52 - Diggers

One other idea I suggested - and maybe we should exhaust this before we resort to adding an extra skill to the set - is using the Surviving Bombers gimmick, which makes the nuke non-fatal (of course, you still have to be very careful where you use it, to avoid creating fatal falls or reaching the bottom of the level. The ForceGimmick code for enabling it is 00000800 (or 4211; either will work). Another reason I'd prefer to avoid adding more skills is that the next update of NeoLemmix is going to add an 8th new skill (and this will be the last one, as there'd need to be some drastic overhauling of a LOT of things in both the level format and the player code to add any more than this), so that skill would fill up the last empty slot on the skillset. This new skill isn't a destructive skill, but it may have some very significant implications for this topic nonetheless.

[namida]

The new version of NeoLemmix is up, and the Cloner should have some significant effects on this topic! In some cases it'd just increase the possible percent (for example, you can get 100% on Fun 2 now, still within the one of each limit - but then the new issue is, can you get 110%? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />), in some of these it might even be a matter of "use as many cloners as you can spare close to the exit to get a few extra %", but others it might let you save a few skills, especially if a level turns out to be heavily reliant on any permanent skills.

[Minim]

I think we should ban the Cloner and just go with the other 7 skills on this thread. I think the idea of going over the 100% mark is just ridiculous, and plus, we should really be thinking of a literally ground-breaking skill, such as a fencer, laser or maybe even a blow-torcher (Like the one in the Worms games).

Apparantly in challenge mode you can click a skill up to 100 times, but it is very tedious (and it's just plain ridiculous too) to be cloning a lemming 100 times to get the best percentage on every possible level. Fortunately this isn't scheduled to happen in this challenge thread.

All that aside, I made results for every Havoc level that doesn't involve the cloner.

Havoc 2: 19 (96%) (Very annoying, although I used the chains on the right to help me on my way up)
Havoc 5: Impossible because 1, of the awkward but tempting terrain layout and 2, it's a 100%er. The ceiling prevents me from taking the top route. Because it's 100% you can't use a stoner. The only way down the two walls is by gliding but when they glide down the second wall they fly off the edge and thus it's impossible to turn these guys round to reach home. Again, there's madness in the method...
Havoc 6: 6 (100%)
Havoc 8: 18 (98%)
Havoc 9 and 12: 3 (100%)
Havoc 10: 1 (19%)
Havoc 16: 2 (90%)
Havoc 17: 3 (98%) (One of my favourites for this challenge, however it's also a favourite to be improved on, as I used 2 walkers and 2 platformers, and had to use another one of the two to stop stacking after releasing the crowd. Clearing away the traps was extremely fun and made the level much less annoying)
Havoc 15 and 19: Impossible because of buried exits.

[namida]

I think we should ban the Cloner and just go with the other 7 skills on this thread. I think the idea of going over the 100% mark is just ridiculous, and plus, we should really be thinking of a literally ground-breaking skill, such as a fencer, laser or maybe even a blow-torcher (Like the one in the Worms games).

It's not unprecedented; the PS3 version has something just like the Cloner, except it's an object rather than a skill (and doesn't turn the clone around). But there are (for example) a level that has 20 lemmings and requires saving 21 (it doesn't use percentages on that version).

My reason for not going with a ground-breaking tool is that ultimately, while it woudl be beneficial to this topic, it probably wouldn't be so beneficial in general. The Cloner is a very new concept; much more so that a destructive skill in a slightly different direction. That's what the addition of a skill needs to take into account - what kind of potential it adds to new levels. Indeed, I've already thought of (though not made) a few interesting ideas for levels using this one; whereas so far, aside from the stroke of genius I had with Stone Hot Sacrifice, I haven't really come up with anything overly great for the rest, unless it's in combination with the Cloner - and even SHS, for example, some of the skills don't really add anything to the puzzle except being there for the sake of using them (and maybe teaching a new idea about them) - for example, the water could be removed removing the need for both the Stoner and the Swimmer; a wall could be placed to remove one of the walkers, etc.

Obviously, Challenge Mode does encourage doing that on challenges that don't specifically prohibit it or give higher priority to something else (such as fewest skills used).

One option I could consider adding in the next update - though I'm not sure how exactly this would work together with Challenge Mode - is adding a third option alongside "use percent" or "use lemming count", which would be "use cloner-adjusted percents" - basically, the percent values would be based off the number of lemmings plus the number of cloners, so that saving every lemming with all cloners used would equal 100%. Needless to say this would just be a cosmetic thing - in fact, percentages already are purely cosmetic in NeoLemmix; behind-the-scenes it works off the lemming count (unlike traditional which does indeed work off the percentages directly - for example, if you make a level with 200 lemmings and set the save requirement at 199, you'll still pass if you save 198, because that's still equal to 99% - this is part of what enables the nuke glitch).

[namida]

Your score for Crazy 14; is there any reason it wouldn't work with a left-facing entrance? I ask this because I'm changing that level's entrance to left-facing in the next update; currently there's an inconsistency between it (right-facing) and the Genesis version remake of it in Extra (left-facing) which I felt needed to be cleared up, and left makes more sense for this level.

[Minim]

I think there is a problem with the left-facing method. I don't know how I can describe it though, but I'm sure the replay can, attached below. When starting off with a stoner, the lemmings can get a couple of pixels higher by moving in the opposite direction if I platform in the direction they come out. Another stoner quickly follows to block off the edge. then I could jump onto the first stoner (Which is roughly six pixels higher) and platform to the opposite direction. I was able to block the other end with my third stoner. This was where I capitalised on the three-per skill method, and was able to reach the exit with three stackers. With the update I think it's going to take four skills, because you may need to block the edges with three separate stoners for this to work. I hope this is understandable.