Lemmings Plus III

[namida]

Alright, next thing to be released is the cheat code!

The cheat code for LPIII is... HEARTBLEED.

I've taken the release poll down for a bit, just to give a bit of a rest before I release more stuff. In the meantime, I've put a just-for-fun poll in its place. When it goes back up, unless the levels are all finalised by that point (in which case the level files will be an option too), the options will be the Timid replays or the answer to "Which level is the 9th secret level hidden in?".

[namida]

Update uploaded. This one doesn't count against the update schedule since no levels are changed; it just updates to the new NeoLemmix V1.13n. There is one LPIII specific change: Cheat codes can now be enabled in the INI file. (They still cannot be used to access secret levels.)

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ozmgwl327bzvfvc/LemmingsPlusIII.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/download/ozmgwl327bzvfvc/LemmingsPlusIII.zip

[namida]

Just wondering if anyone's had any luck with the so-far unbeaten levels yet? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

The levels are:
Rough 8
Rough 14 Beaten by Nepster
Rough 17
Fierce 1
Fierce 5
Fierce 10
Fierce 11
Fierce 12
Fierce 13
Fierce 14
Fierce 15
Fierce 16
Fierce 17
The 9th secret level

EDIT: I have a feeling Fierce 16 might've been beaten during the testing, but I keep forgetting to check when I'm at home.
Fierce 11, 12 and 15 have previously been beaten via backroutes, but the new update has fixed those backroutes and no new solutions (backroute or otherwise) have been found.

[Nepster]

Fierce 11, 12 and 15 have previously been beaten via backroutes, but the new update has fixed those backroutes and no new solutions (backroute or otherwise) have been found.

This has changed now, though I fear you won't be happy with the results.

Rough 8: Definitely much harder than its place as my solution requires several tricks and

at least my solution wouldn't work under traditional Lemmix mechanics, making it even harder for those who are used to them.

Fierce 7: Sorry, but I hate that level. Counting pixels on absolutely uniformily coloured pipes is pure hell!
Fierce 10: My main problem with this level was, that I had problems recognizing most of the steel. I always thought you had to mine down in the middle to let the lemmings from downstairs come up into the pit directly on the left of the exit. Once one realizes that this won't work because of a steel wall in between, there isn't much left one can try and the solution is relatively easy to find. Good level though.
And now I wonder, why all the non-rectangular steel is there? As far as I can tell, no backroutes would appear if one replaces them with usual terrain.
Fierce 11: Giving back the fourth builder was likely a mistake...
Fierce 12: I am getting closer to the desired 89%.
Fierce 15: I am deeply sorry, but this level still needs major changes. This time I essentially ran the "skills you can't live without" challenge (as I found this an efficient way to find alternative solutions): I got down to 1 climber, 3 bomber, 3 builder, 1 basher and 1 miner. One can still save 90% or solve the level in 1:30. Nevertheless many of these solutions turned out to be quite interesting and fun. Good luck removing all these solutions http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" />.

[namida]

Rough 8: That's the intended solution, or at least extremely close. I might swap this level with one of the easier Fierce levels (perhaps Fierce 6?) in the next update. I'm also not quite seeing what (apart from of course the pickup skills http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />) wouldn't work in traditional Lemmix for your solution...?

Rough 14: Not quite what I intended, but can't do much about that now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Still, it took quite a while for anyone to solve this one, so it's fine.

Fierce 7: Nicely done. There's no real single "intended" solution here, though all solutions so far follow this same idea, even if the methods vary.

Fierce 10: That is indeed the intended solution.

Fierce 11: Goddamnit. >_> This one's gonna need fixing.

Fierce 12: Your solution is close enough to the intended one that it's fine. The only real difference is that I sent another cluster of three leftwards, instead of thinking to send another climber over the right. xD

Fierce 15: Geez. Six solutions, and none of them use the one trick that's unique to this level (as far as LPIII goes, anyway)... clearly it would appear that trick can't be forced in this level. Outside of this, even with a variety of solutions available I think it retains a good degree of challenge, so I think I'm going to call it quits for fixing thing one; the main trick can stay in my pocket to use in the bonus pack maybe, in a level that doesn't have so many other elements to it. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />


I'm also thinking I should probably swap Fierce 1 with one of the later Fierce levels, since it still remains unsolved. Maybe with Fierce 8, so that they retain the same musics, although I don't know if Fierce 8 is a bit out-of-place for a first level of a rank...

So for next version:
> Swap Rough 8 with a Fierce level, maybe Fierce 6
> Swap Fierce 1 with a later Fierce level
> Fix Fierce 11


Also - poll results are split again. So that I can do the replays sequentially rather than fragmented, I'll give the location of the 9th secret level first.

The 9th secret level is hidden in...

Dodgy 17 "The North Korean Method"
Yes, that's right, a secret level in another secret level. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

You can quite possibly guess easily *where* in the level it is, but accessing it is FAR harder than any of the other secret levels.


The remaining unbeaten levels are:
Rough 17
Fierce 1
Fierce 5
Fierce 11 (Backrouted)
Fierce 13
Fierce 14
Fierce 16
Fierce 17
The 9th secret level

[namida]

Okay, level order changes for the next version involve two groups being moved around a bit:

• Three way switch: Rough 8 -> Fierce 6 -> Rough 14
• Swap: Fierce 1 <-> Fierce 8

Aside from that, I came up with a way - and I don't know HOW I didn't think of this before - that kills the general approach that all Nepster's backroutes for Fierce 11 had been based on. Of course, that doesn't guarantee a lack of other backroutes. xD

[namida]

Alright, new update is here, which updates the levels to V3. As such, beyond this point no further changes will be made to any levels except Fierce 11 to 17, no matter what backroutes might show up. (Levels may still be reordered if nessecary, but the levels themself won't undergo any further changes.)

Changes are mostly already noted in the above few posts, but just in case:
> Rough 8 was moved to Fierce 6, which was in turn moved to Rough 14, which was in turn moved to Rough 8
> Fierce 1 and Fierce 8 were swapped
> Backroute fixes in Fierce 11

No new NeoLemmix version; this still runs on V1.13n.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/ozmgwl327bzvfvc/LemmingsPlusIII.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/download/ozmgwl327bzvfvc/LemmingsPlusIII.zip


The 100% list and the unbeaten levels list in the second post have both been updated; I also chagned the "9th secret level" to it's *exact* position (which is Dodgy 18).

I'll also confirm - I've tested all levels again (even those that remain unchanged from the previous releases, just in case a NeoLemmix update broke them), and they're indeed all still possible - obviously if I found any that weren't I would've fixed them before making the update. (Obviously this testing was not done by actually playing the levels, but simply by running my existing replay, and only if that failed would I actually play the level to test it, which only happened on two levels - Fierce 11 obviously due to backroute fixes, but also Dodgy 1 which I have no idea why there were issues with this one, but it worked up until the last few skills anyway which I was able to manually re-execute.)

[namida]

Here's some hints for the remaining unbeaten Fierce levels. For Dodgy 18 and Rough 17, I assume these are more related to finding the levels than beating them, so I won't give hints.

Fierce 5 - Stack builders as a blocker substitute; you don't have to worry about running out of them after all.
Fierce 8 - All but one of the saved lemmings will enter the exit on exactly the same frame.
Fierce 11 - Don't try to save the basher, instead try to get other lemmings past him while he's bashing.
Fierce 13 - The interaction between a builder and one of the destructive skills is the key to this level.
Fierce 14 - In the most efficient version of the solution that I'm aware of, all lemmings that pass through a radiation object do one of three things before their countdown runs out; either a) get turned by a blocker at least once, b) become a blocker themself, or c) exit the level.
Fierce 16 - The exact positioning of a builder on their steps is key to solving this level.
Fierce 17 - Remember that an induced countdown via the radiation object does not count as assigning a skill, which leaves open the possibility of a lemming bombing *and* performing one other action.

[Nepster]

Fierce 11 still causes problems... On the positive side, contrary to Fierce 15, I see hardly any way to modify my solution. So there is a good chance, that your next fix will actually remove my way to solve the level.

[namida]

I can think of three ways to deal with that solution all without affecting the intended solution; the first two are mutually exclusive, while the third can be used in combination with one of the other two.

1) Remove the bomber and modify the terrain slightly to remove the need to use it.
2) Remove the bomber from the skillset and make it a pickup skill instead, it's used at a later point than where you've used it.

3) Shorten (or completely remove) the pipe you built against; this has no functional impact on the intended solution (it makes a useful reference point for timing one of the skills though).

[Nepster]

Bad news first: The fouth builder in Fierce 11 created some new backroutes, e.g. my solution to the very first version during the test period reappeared (sorry for not seeing that earlier).

Nevertheless the following three changes should remove all solutions known to me (reasons given below)
- 3) Shorten (but NOT remove) the pipe
- 4) Move the upper right platform at the newly added gap down and to the right a few pixels (assuming this doesn't conflict with the intended solution)
- 2) Make the bomber a pickup skill (or alternatively choose 1) if you want to be completely sure to remove the backroutes, though I think this would make the level quite a bit easier)

Reason for 3) This seems to be the only way to get rid of solution 2 (apart from going back to a version requiring only 3 builders). And as you already noted it removes the solution in my previous post. Nevertheless completely removing this pipe seems not to be a good idea, as one could then build three stairs from the one-way wall to the left, fiddle a little bit around at the pipes in the top left corner and then take the ceiling route with all lemmings (though I am not sure if this actually would work).

Reason for 4) This would take care of solution 1 and 3. Moreover it would make solutions like 5 or 6 at least harder. Hopefully being able to close the gap using a builder starting from the lower platform does not create new backroutes.

Reason for 2) Seems necessary to remove solution 4. Perhaps one doesn't even need this to remove approaches like 5 or 6 (note that solution 6 only fails because I couldn't make basher-miner cancelling work in NeoLemmix). But making the bomber a pick-up skill definitely removes solution 6 and would at least require the basher-miner cancelling in solution 5. Together with the change 4) I feel reasonable certain that this takes care of solution 5. Moreover depending on the new location of the pickup bomber, this would give another reason why solution 3 no longer works.

[namida]

I'll look at those soon.

For now - I've uploaded an update, this doesn't fix anything in the levels, it's just to update to the new NeoLemmix version V1.14n. Link is the same as always.

[namida]

No update yet - I'll wait a bit longer in case anything else comes up, since this'll be the final update.

But, I decided it's time to start on the replays. And since it's taken a while to get around to these... here is both Timid AND Dodgy. Secret level access replays are not included, but solutions to the secret levels are.

[namida]

Here's the replays for Rough. Enjoy! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[namida]

I've decided that, since no other levels are problematic and Fierce 11 still remains a challenging level even with these alternative solutions, I'm not going to modify it from its current state. So, that release of Lemmings Plus III can be considered finalized in terms of level design. However, due to score-related issues on Dodgy 6 and Fierce 5, as well as some nessecary modifications to MAIN.DAT and the styles for NeoLemmix V1.15n, there will still be one more update before LPIII as a whole is considered finalised - but this update will be purely to update it to the next version of NeoLemmix; no changes to the levels.

So... has anyone had any luck with the remaining unbeaten levels? Fierce 5 can probably be put down to it being the Frenzy concept taken to an extreme, but what about the more-normal levels? I'd especially be interested to know if anyone's had luck with Fierce 8 or Fierce 13 yet? (Keep in mind that Fierce 1 and Fierce 8 were swapped in the latest update, the "Fierce 8" I'm referring to here is "Curiosity Killed The Lemming")
I did expect that Fierce 13 would be problematic, but as you can probably tell from me initially placing it as Fierce 1, I didn't actually think Fierce 8 was too hard in all honesty...

A couple more hints for those two...

Fierce 8 - The first two skills you should assign, the order is somewhat interchangable, are a floater and a bomber. The third is another bomber. By the time you assign this bomber, you should already have increased the release rate to 99, and you never need to decrease it again.
Fierce 13 - If you exclude the skills that aren't nessecary to the solution (the bomber is never needed, and the floater may not be depending on your timing), the next skill you need to assign at any given point will always be either the furthest-left or furthest-right one on the skillbar.