Lix Community Level Set - First complete Beta!

[Proxima]

Suggested improvements to Lix Potion Number Nine and Lix Cannon.

[mobius]

Land of Rainbows and Unicorns; the intended solution is simple yet for some reason I and apparently NaOH did not see it. Why is that? The intended is not annoying at all while that other one is. Either way I like this level.

geoo's solution to Feel the Pressure was the same as mine. At some point Akseli didn't have steel on the top and that solution wouldn't have worked..

Even though Italian Job was not backrouted, I polished it up a bit (see attachment) and changed title to something much more fitting. [I discovered a way to remove the old backroute other than increasing the number of lix in the level but I didn't change this anyway]

Akseli's replay for Elixer didn't work for me, but what I saw looked like it was not intended, in any case, I'd agree it's too difficult for it's position, I haven't solved it yet myself.

[Proxima]

Here's another alternative version of Lix Cannon, which doesn't require the jumper. Up to you which you want to use.

[Akseli]

I just crossed the landmark of 200 solved levels in Lix community levelset (40-40-40-38-36-6 by ratings), so here's my Vicious solutions! Levels I didn't solve yet:
15: Laser Deathroom (Part 3), 30: 100% Built by Lixes, 34: Spin Geometry, 35: Bashing & Building

I noticed how levels get somewhat more backroute-prone further in the pack, I guess that there has been fewer playtesters for the hardest levels? My solution for 40: 'Chasm' is a clear example.

Other notes:
8: Slipping – A way too easy, I suspect backrouting this.
9: Slipping Again – A way too easy, I suspect backrouting this.
11: Round Trip – Really easy for its place, I remember wondering this also in Steve's cheapo pack, where this level was really late in the game. Every skill placement is visible.
17: Lixster Quadrille – Easy for its place.
26: Down Among the Dead Lix – Levels around this seemed much harder.
32: Halfway Down the Stairs – Too easy for its place, there's so many skills, my solution used only half of them.
38: Triangle Inequality -  A beautiful idea! Though the solution needs a bit extra fiddling after realizing the main idea.

I think the hardest Vicious levels (that I've solved) were: 36: Survival of the Craftiest, 29: Brute Fours, 28: A Matter of Perspective, 10: Wait Why is There a Tree (turning around caused me troubles in this one)

I'm enjoying the levels a lot in this phase of the game where I'm going now! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[Simon]

Fixing backroutes and level orderings has priority.

A minor issue is the pack's name: The current lixlfpack is redundant. As a subdir of levels/single/, it's obvious that it is for Lix, and that it is pack.

I propose lemforum for the directory name, and http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/_english.X.txt" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">this pack description after clicking on it.

-- Simon

[geoo]

Ok, so I haven't managed to implement all backroute fixes for Cunning and Daunting yet, so I'll leave that and commenting on these for later, but I'll comment a bit on Vicious right now (backroute fixes will have to come later).

First off, harder levels tend to have more backroutes in general. There are more viable options to try (that's why they are so hard!), and thus also to consider when looking for backroutes.

Dividing Three by Two: I've played this level a few times in the recent past, and I agree, there are a whole lot of solutions that work, and finding one of them isn't that hard. So I'm contemplating what to do about this. One idea is upping the requirement to 100% (and maybe even removing the blockers in addition) to make it harder. The other options is swapping it with Rhapsody--, but then that one might be a little to easy for its position. If none of this works, I'd have to find a new level for Vicious 1 and move this one down to somewhere in early Daunting or even Cunning.
Slipping and Slipping Again: Honestly, I don't even know what the intended solutions to these are. I have a suspicion for Slipping, but in Slipping Again pretty much anything goes. I considered these as somewhat open-ended levels. Don't know what to do here, I could also swap out Slipping Again for some other level like Top Gear or Lixes in Motion, both excellent levels that could serve as replacement. At least Slipping I didn't find that easy personally.
Triangle Inequality: You're still using the main idea, but you execute it more beautifully than the way I intended. I might just change it to enforce your variation. (My solution builds in the other direction, but the bridge ends up in basically the same position.)
Bulldozer: I might call it a shortcut, it's a variation at least, but either way there's nothing I can really do about this. I might widen the holding pit at the right maybe.
Chasm: That's a pretty bad backroute exploiting the cuber behaviour, but it's easily fixable fortunately.
Get Hype: Considering I've eliminated similar solution that were pretty close to the intended one, I'll probably do the same to yours.
The Last Laugh: This is a pretty nifty variation of the solution I know, I'm almost wondering whether I should enforce this instead.
Bashing and Building: It's funny that you find this one hard just like me when I first played it, when the solution end up being so simple (that's really the only reason I didn't move it to Hopeless).
Round Trip: Yeah, the reason it's where it is is probably because it comes pretty late in Steve's Cheapo pack (but there A Towering Proposition is in Hopeless too iirc, while here it ended up in Cunning). I guess I should move it.
Halfway Down the Stairs: It has a variety of solutions, but still none of them are that easy to find. Maybe it could go a little earlier. I also like to avoid the well-timed climber bomb myself to get up one level and use something that feels more legit in its stead. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
I agree with you about the levels that you find hardest, and I'm glad that most of them do in fact appear in the latter half of Vicious. I should move Wait Why is There a Tree a bit later probably as it's a bit technical.  A Matter of Perspective is one I personally didn't find that hard, but I put it where it is as it's about seeing that main trick.

Thanks again for your feedback, I appreciate it a lot!

Re: Simon's suggestion from the previous post, I agree with that and support these changes for the official version to be included in the lix release in the future.

[Proxima]

Fix for The Crimson Room attached.

I'm fine with Dividing Three By Two requiring 100% rather than it being an optional challenge -- I guess if Lix is ever distributed beyond our community, many players wouldn't think of looking at the hints for challenge suggestions, or wouldn't bother to try them out.

For Halfway Down the Stairs, the climb/bomb was part of the originally intended solution, but the jump/bomb certainly was not. We should remove either the jumper or the fling-bomber -- neither is essential for my solution. Nepster's ingenious 49/50 solution uses the jumper, and I can't remember what skills the no-miner challenge uses.

Bulldozer -- please leave it, anything that makes this level less annoying is a blessing.

The directory name needs to be something less bland, something that shouts out "this is the main level pack that newcomers should play first (after the tutorial)". No suggestions right now, I'll try to come up with something.

[mobius]

might I suggest replacing my/Nort slipping remakes with a level much closer to the actual thing? I don't remember exactly why I didn't remake it exactly before [no, I do, I couldn't for some reason but now I can. It wasn't even hard].
I like this level a lot for it's simplicity yet difficulty, and I don't find anything glitchy about it or even very reliant on extreme precision. There are two solutions I know of--one uses the blocker the other doesn't. I wasn't able to solve with the blocker solution but I only tried twice. I see no purpose for the one way walls that are present in the original.
I also like the sparse layout of the level.

I feel like I am forgetting something though... like maybe  a backroute comes about from making the platforms a little thicker (this is necessary in Lix I believe)

I also doubt a time limit's necessary, but Idk that either. I also included one of the replays.

EDIT: I find the replay to Last Laugh fine/no backroutes

[geoo]

Ok, I uploaded a new version with a bunch of backroute fixes, see change log in the first post. I repositioned some levels too. Note the list of changes still to be done in the first post too. If something hasn't been done yet and is not on the list either but you think it should, feel free to point it out to me so I won't forget.

For the Simple ordering I implemented most things we discussed. The only two things I disagree with in NaOH's list are LMP1, Climb to Freedom and Minimalism 2 (formerly Min 1) which I think come too late there. I kinda want to keep The Borderland at position 20 as it stands out visually. I don't think e.g. Alternative Methods Recommended is harder than it.

Comments on Akseli's Cunning/Dauting reviews:
Merge Sort: I think I've written it before, but for some people it's very easy, for some very hard. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Elixir: That's quite an impressive stunt, but you definitely don't need it. I'm contemplating whether to eliminate that, the intended solution uses quite an elegant trick.
Have Another Try: Thanks, so I'm wondering what makes this level so special to you. When I made it I felt it was just another puzzle level, at least I touched it up a little to make it look prettier, at the beginning it was really just a wall of bricks.
Dances With Lixes: You don't need that trick to solve the level, either way I moved it up to Daunting.
The Lix Who Japed: Moved to the end of Daunting. I wrote an additional hint for this one pointing out something useful to get the player started. Hints will be added to all levels once Steve and I write some more.
Little Miner Puzzle (Part3): Yeah, your solution is definitely not intended. It's for most part the same as mine, but you don't have to use the mutual miner cancelling, it works without it. I don't think I can fix that though.
The Italian Job: Moved to earlier rating.
I'm Gonna Make You Mine: It's quite spammy, though iirc you can at least avoid the precise builder placement with a different trick. I don't think it's underrated difficulty-wise though.
It takes time to build: I quite like your solution, it's very clean. I went ahead and enforced mobius' intended solution though, and accordingly move the level a bit later too.
Alien Invasion: That's another bad backroute, hopefully fixed in the new version.
Derailed Level: That's quite an interesting twist on the intended main idea you have here, I love it!
The Bottomless Closet: That's quite an interesting solution, uses all the skills too. A bit more technical than mine though, I wonder whether I should try to eliminate it, e.g. moving the hatch a little further to the right.
The Ring of Fnargl: I don't like how you used the excess skills I gave to ease execution to set up your pathway to the exit, while still using the timed climber bomb that these extra skills were supposed to make unnecessary. But either way the solutions to that level aren't that exciting.
Triangle Inequality: Attached my solution so you can see the little difference. Wondering whether to modify the level to enforce your solution idea, it feels a bit prettier with the miner and builder aligned.

More general comments:
Dividing Three By Two: I set the requirement to 100% now. If that's still too easy, an option would be requiring one miner or digger at the very right so it's not available for the main part anymore. I find the 100% that saves a digger (or miner) pretty elegant, have a look and try to find it!
Bulldozer: You know, there's a smart way to do this level. It can be done comfortably without even pausing that way (see attached). It's a pity that I can't enforce that way of executing the solution it, so most people will probably just brute-force their way through it with pausing and savestates and find it annoying.
Halfway Down the Stairs: Attached is an archive with 7 different solutions. Maybe that will help you decide which skills to cut. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />


For Round Trip and potentially Slipping, if I move those down to Daunting, which levels do you think would be most fit to replace them in Vicious?
And to everyone, what do you think of changing Slipping Again to tseug's original version of Slipping that mobius posted above? In hindsight I don't find it that exciting a level and a bit technical, so alternatively I'm thinking of replacing it with Top Gear or Lixes in Motion (see outtakes folder) too.


Btw, I had a glance at the time limit list, and there are a few levels where I don't quite see the purpose of the time limits (I haven't thought deeply about it though, e.g. I might be missing how they eliminate backroutes), care to enlighten me? Otherwise I'd be inclined to remove the time limits from these levels: allover (240), brutefours (300), cryforme (180), deathorglory (120), divisionoflabor (210), finale (180), imgonnamakeyoumine (180), leapoffaith (180), metalcitymayhem (240), pathofwickedness (180), roundtrip (240), segmentationfault (150), thelastlaugh (120), tinkertailorsoldier (190), toccata (180).

[Proxima]

I kinda want to keep The Borderland at position 20 as it stands out visually.

I'm touched  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Halfway Down the Stairs: Attached is an archive with 7 different solutions. Maybe that will help you decide which skills to cut. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

I also looked back at my original replay for the no-miner challenge. It turns out to use both bombers but not the jumper. I think the best thing is just to leave it. Taking into account the precision required for the jump-bomber, it's not really any easier than other solutions.

And to everyone, what do you think of changing Slipping Again to tseug's original version of Slipping that mobius posted above? In hindsight I don't find it that exciting a level and a bit technical, so alternatively I'm thinking of replacing it with Top Gear or Lixes in Motion (see outtakes folder) too.

I'd be very happy to see Lixes in Motion re-included in the set, but I'd also like to have another look at both Slippings to see if I can come up with a fix... when I have time.

Btw, I had a glance at the time limit list, and there are a few levels where I don't quite see the purpose of the time limits (I haven't thought deeply about it though, e.g. I might be missing how they eliminate backroutes), care to enlighten me? Otherwise I'd be inclined to remove the time limits from these levels: allover (240), brutefours (300), cryforme (180), deathorglory (120), divisionoflabor (210), finale (180), imgonnamakeyoumine (180), leapoffaith (180), metalcitymayhem (240), pathofwickedness (180), roundtrip (240), segmentationfault (150), thelastlaugh (120), tinkertailorsoldier (190), toccata (180).

Brute Fours, Cry for me, Death or Glory and Round Trip are remakes that have time limits because the original levels did, and in the case of Cry for me and Death or Glory, the original authors aren't around to ask whether they're okay with removing the time limits. It's up to you what you want to do with them.

Finale, I'm Gonna Make You Mine, Metal City Mayhem, Path of Wickedness and Toccata have time limits as part of the challenge. I know you don't like this, but I do (in moderation) and they are my levels.

[ccexplore]

I wonder if Lix should soft-end time-limited singleplayer levels, rather than hard-ending them with a nuke like it is now.  That is, no auto-nuking and give the option for the player to continue playing even after time's up, with the obvious effect that the resulting solution will fail regardless of number saved.

That of course does nothing with the objection on having to repeat execution to coax an otherwise working and not-so-different solution into the time limit, but does at least address the objection about time limits interfering with player's process of solving the level.  I haven't played any of the mentioned levels yet to say anything about the "repeat execution" objection one way or the other with respect to those specific levels.  Though I have to say even with non time-limited levels, I don't think it's all that uncommon to come up with some solutions that seem to work only to actually not quite work out toward the end, so in that perspective, one can say a repeated-execution from time limit isn't perhaps all that more annoying, as long as the time limit is not too insanely tight.

[Simon]

Soft time limits: Very good idea.

That makes testing of multiplayer levels much easier. Authors will not forget setting overtime to something small after testing.

Triggering the nuke at exactly 5 seconds left makes for a longer time limit than the soft limit. Late-spawned lixes have extra time before they become exploders. Some existing levels must therefore be revised to fit the shorter time limit.

-- Simon

[RubiX]

Yea thats a nice idea.   For testing multiplayer maps its surely a useful feature, as we all need to up that timer when we test stuff, and often forget to revert it after testing.

For singleplayer it'll be great. 
For those others who played 'PUSHOVER' the timer would turn red once hitting the limit, but allow you to keep playing, and that was awesome for testing purposes etc 
(though failing the timer in that game allowed you to still pass the map if you had tokens saved and were ok with paying the token penalty for being slow)

[geoo]

Halfway Down the Stairs: On of my solutions also uses a faller-bomb instead of a jumper bomb, and a climber bomb on one of the other steps. You need to use the batter to get the lix up there instead.

Slipping: seems like a level with not too many different solutions some of which could probably be eliminated. Slipping Again, I feel, is 'anything goes' on the other hand. It's not that bad, but at least doesn't belong in Vicious as it is. If you think you can improve it, I'm welcome for suggestions. Feedback on tseug's original version of Slipping that mobius posted is welcome too. If nothing changes though I'll probably replace it with Top Gear or Lixes in Motion. I could also try to get both of these in by replacing e.g. The Pit which is kinda straightforward and strange. I remembered it being more interesting, but I can't get the solution I thought to be intended to work anymore. I attached a version of The Pit that should enforce what I thought to be intended, and also makes the last builder placement less awkward. If I do that, other replacement candidates (if I want to get both levels back in) could be Three Days of the Condor (I kept it as a sort of tutorial level, but I forgot that Hellfire uses that trick too), or A Completely Ridiculous level (technical).

I also attached my solution to Bulldozer to my previous post which I forgot when I initially posted it.

Brute Fours, Cry for me, Death or Glory and Round Trip are remakes that have time limits because the original levels did, and in the case of Cry for me and Death or Glory, the original authors aren't around to ask whether they're okay with removing the time limits. It's up to you what you want to do with them.

Finale, I'm Gonna Make You Mine, Metal City Mayhem, Path of Wickedness and Toccata have time limits as part of the challenge. I know you don't like this, but I do (in moderation) and they are my levels.

Hmm if you consider potentially redoing a solution with tighter timing a challenge, then yes (admittedly, in the recent past, I only remember running into this in Path of Wickedness). Sounds more like nostalgia to me, but ok.
In Pushover the time limit issue was a lot more serious, because you couldn't pause the level to think about the solution (when paused the screen would be obscured). So after having figured a solution you'd always have to restart the level before executing it, which is especially annoying if you already had part of the solution executed and wanted to take a break to think about what to do next. In comparison to that, in Lemmings the time limit is almost a non-issue.
Ok so, for those levels that were ported, I'd assume in general that they just had time limits because you had to set one (not safe to assume but rather likely), so on the list of time limits to be removed for now would be allover (240), brutefours (300), cryforme (180), deathorglory (120), leapoffaith (180), roundtrip (240), segmentationfault (150), thelastlaugh (120). For divisionoflabor (210) and tinkertailorsoldier (190) they might serve backroute prevention purposes, I'm not sure but at least they are chosen less arbitrarily. It's also a consistency thing, the norm should be no time limit as right now there's no explicit warning that a level has a time limit (you have to notice the timer is going down instead of up), so most of the time you just notice because suddenly your lix explode, which is kinda frustrating.

Re: multiplayer testing on a time limit, I still think a flag indicating that a level is multiplayer would be better for that anyway, in which case the time limit should be ignored (or if you want to implement a more sophisticated way of testing with different tribes, only once you nuke for one).

[mobius]

It's also a consistency thing, the norm should be no time limit as right now there's no explicit warning that a level has a time limit (you have to notice the timer is going down instead of up), so most of the time you just notice because suddenly your lix explode, which is kinda frustrating.

This is a problem that should be addressed by making some kind of indication in the level or on the menu screen. Btw, I don't think the majority of players, at least players that are used to playing Lemmings are going to experience this frustration because they are used to time limits. Anyway, I still think it's a good idea to have something more noticeable indicating there is a time limit.