Lix Community Level Set - incomplete alpha

[geoo]

Ok, as I wrote my previous post I started looking for left-to-right solutions, and now I also found one (I haven't looked at your spoiler text yet as I wanted to exhaust the left-to-right bashing search space first which is a lot smaller and thus less time to spend on, which I still haven't finished yet as I stumbled across this solution on the way and am gonna wait for a comment first).
If it's this (or tbh any left-to-right bashing solution really), I'm gonna be so pissed off for wasting hours, I only vaguely remember your comment on my first solution but it made me assume that your solution must be right-to-left (probably not by your fault), so I ceased looking for left-to-right solutions. Please tell me this is not the solution (I somehow have the hunch it is...) Though if it is I'm at least going to understand why you said your solution isn't harder than the first one I found, because I believe any right-to-left solution would be way harder now considering how long I've been looking in that department; and maybe it could be moved a few positions back in Hopeless. Eh before I speculate and think about what if I should wait for the answer.

[Proxima]

That is also an unnecessarily complicated way to do it  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[Nepster]

Here is a solution to Won't get fooled again V8. As it saves 97, I doubt that it is the intended one.
@ccx: As you mentioned, my previous solution doesn't need the obscure trick. In fact I planned to stop the miner with the spare skill and was surprised when I didn't need to do this.

Laser Deathroom 3 -- I can't remember the solutions to the Laser Deathrooms, but I agree that perhaps we don't need all three.

At least my solution had similarities to the one for Laser Deathroom 1. So it might be possible to turn Laser Deathroom 3 into a challenge for Laser Deathroom 1 ("use only 8 builders") and mention this in the hints?

[ccexplore]

That is also an unnecessarily complicated way to do it  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

But admittedly quite impressive. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

Here is a solution to Won't get fooled again V8. As it saves 97, I doubt that it is the intended one.

Wow yeah, massive backroute all the way through v1 that all of us had managed to overlook so far until now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> Thanks for finding it though, how embarrassing if the community set releases the level with that, especially if I were to elevate geoo's solution as the intended one.  It can certainly be eliminated but I need to think about how to do so subtly, if that's even possible (especially with the version that keeps geoo's solution).

[To be fair, it's still a neat trick even though from my perspective it's a backroute.] http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Okay, maybe I overreacted slightly.  It's not so bad fixing Nepster's latest backroute, see v9.  (D'oh, it's turning into the new Brickout! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />)
[edit: let me make that sawblade wider actually, just in case...]
[edit2: done, level re-attached]

If anyone manages to still get Nepster's backroute to work with that specific change, you can be sure that the placement of the added sawblade will be tweaked accordingly to block it.  But please do report such successful attempts anyway--I'm trying to keep the sawblade placement from looking too intimidating, and therefore am exploring what kind of placement I can get away with while still preventing Nepster's backroute.

As for the community-set version, this new addition does affect geoo's solution as seen in v6, but I believe it's possible to tweak that solution to avoid (ie. no pixel precision needed) the issue caused by the latest addition.  But more testing is probably needed on that front.  I'll look into it at a later time.

[edit: I've now decided that a 3-minute time limit is also necessary.  For now this will be the only change for v10 so there's no need to download the new version (which I haven't bothered attaching), just play v9 with the time limit in mind]

[edit: superceded by additional changes in v10 that goes beyond time limit.  Please redownload http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1005.msg20714#msg20714" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">new level file here]

[mobius]

one thing about the # of levels; since I voted for less levels, I will be okay if you decide to forget about all the new levels I made recently. Since I started making them after you decided to finish the game anyway it was sort of unfair of me to dump a bunch of new levels on you while doing this. I just want to reiterate again, any of these [if accepted] should go as replacements for my older levels. Absolute Zero for example can replace Three days of the condor. Also, I'm surprised how difficult you rated that one; I would say Eye of the needle is harder but maybe I don't know.
 
as to the comment on Escape the Pit; you said it seems like the blocks are floating arbitrarily or something but aren't most levels like that? at least levels where a block *has* to float for puzzle reasons. In any case, you can gladly redecorate any of my levels if you want.

for Top Gear, my opinion is go back to "Catch and Release"-- I like clues in the title and this one certainly doesn't make the level obvious.

I might change Narbacular Drop to Sand/Beach terrain.

I changed the decoration of Fearful Symmetry a little. I expect now that you will replace the old Fearful Symmetry with this.

I noticed a minor glitch? in the editor. [But I think we already knew about this one?] the bounding boxes for acid object warp across from the bottom of the screen to the top when I do NOT have verticle warp enabled but horizontal warp is enabled.

I'm still not confident Picard Maneuver is free of backroutes.

more levels to scrap:
That Pesky Gap [already have levels with these techniques]

Also; I'm still editing the spreadsheet with comments and my hints

and one other funny thing; Now that I think back, your alteration to Over the Hump is actually close to what I originally intended for that level. When i was making it I got frustrated with it so I went with something much easier. So I'm glad it's the way it is now  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

for Top Gear, my opinion is go back to "Catch and Release"-- I like clues in the title and this one certainly doesn't make the level obvious.

"Catch and Release" certainly was the original title when I first came up with the level idea, but changing it back now to that would also mean redoing the upper portion of the level taking out the laser-words (which also have backroute prevention purposes if I recall, though perhaps other means are possible for that).  IIRC the current name was inspired by the sawblades (which for some reason I associated with gears at the time) I had to add to address certain backroutes.

[ccexplore]

No time limit is given in the interest of determining whether one is really necessary, but again, the intended solution needs no more than 3 minutes (with much margin to spare).

I've decided that a time limit is necessary for Won't Get Fooled Again.  Even on v9 there is still a potential backroute solution, although it is likely to be very annoying to execute (likely requiring a lot of spawn rate tweaking), bad enough that I don't want to bother myself even though it's in my interest to understand all backroutes.  While strictly speaking there are ways to eliminate the potential backroute without a time limit, I think I'm happier for now with using the time limit to eliminate.  This kind of backroute solution needs a long "waiting period" anyway during its execution, so a suitable time limit should make it fairly clear that the backroute won't work out well before the player has gotten all the execution details working (as time would be up before the solution has gotten past the necessary waiting period).

Since it's just a time limit change, for now I'm not going to release a new level file just for that, but I probably should update the post with the v9 attachment to mention the new v10 time limit which is 3 minutes. [edit: v10 now has an actual change besides the time limit, so you should download http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=1005.msg20714#msg20714" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">the new level file for it]

==============

On that note, if you are finding potential solutions that you can't execute but think may be possible, please feel free to let me know anyway, using failed replays or whatever other means to help explain the solution.  Even if they turn out to be unworkable, often it is better to make the level more explicitly eliminate them than leaving the player between a rock and a hard place.

[Nepster]

I'm still not confident Picard Maneuver is free of backroutes.

If it helps you, here are the three (somewhat similar) solutions I know of.
(and you might wish to check the attachement in you post as it seems to be an empty txt.-file)

On that note, if you are finding potential solutions that you can't execute but think may be possible, please feel free to let me know anyway, ...

I have two approaches that need slight modifications in the game mechanics to work (so no need to worry right now, but if a future release changes them...). As I haven't saved replays after convincing myself that these solutions don't work, here are only the two specific game mechanics in question:
- Bombers walking down a miner tunnel create a hole that turns other lixes around. If this would also hold for bombers walking up...
- Bashers are somewhat slow with their first stroke. If they would be as fast as in Lemmix...
If you are interested I can make replays (at least without the RR-fiddling needed to make them actually work).

[mobius]

I'm still not confident Picard Maneuver is free of backroutes.

If it helps you, here are the three (somewhat similar) solutions I know of.
(and you might wish to check the attachement in you post as it seems to be an empty txt.-file)

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> this is happening a lot to me recently.. Well anyway, my fix would only have prevented one of your backroutes. And I think it's easier for me just to tell geoo what to change: simply remove the lower left steel block on the upper portion.
One of your solutions was correct!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />
Unfortunately the other backroute, the only way I know how to fix it easily (without making it a lot more obvious what to do at the moment); one-way walls.
Block/miner turning is kind of interesting though... still I believe this solution is easier than the intended. I'm not sure how many (if any) levels in the community pack use this (ISteve's) trick.

In other news I've recently got ideas for lots of new levels but I'm probably going to save most or all of them for the next lix project...

also; Nepster redid "Escape the Pit" which he may upload if he wants to. Also if you'd like to change the title you may. I just thought of this: "The Pit of Despair." [sort of from the movie Princess Bride]

[Nepster]

Here the remake of "Escape the Pit" that möbius mentioned.

[ccexplore]

If you are interested I can make replays (at least without the RR-fiddling needed to make them actually work).

Sure, let me see them.

[mobius]

I assume that Escape the Pit (or Pit of Despair?) is supposed to be easy but I attached my replay saving skills just in case.

now I'm also thinking I should really not just abandon so many of my earlier lix levels to the community set and make them better... except there won't be room, unless I change my vote and go for more levels... I think I'd rather keep the smaller set and save these for another community set still.
In my spreadsheet I will mark levels I am willing to change to get into this set but will still mark them as also ok with scrapping.

[ccexplore]

I've decided that for Won't Get Fooled Again, the 3-minute time limit might not be enough to block the super-annoying-to-execute-if-even-possible backroute I'm worried about.  More to the point while the time limit should block one variation of the backroute, I think other variations still exist where it is impossible for a human to confidently say whether the variation is theoretically possible solution but too hard to execute, vs actually impossible.  So after some deliberation, I've settled on the following change instead--same terrain but I double-up one particular hazard (you'll readily see it so no worries about it being hidden surprise).  Unless I overlooked something, with this change the backroute I'm worried about should only save 92/100 maximum (and you don't need to successfully execute the potential solution to work out that number), one short of the requirement.

So presenting Won't Get Fooled Again v10 (since I never released the 3-minute version as a separate level file, I'll make this new change the official v10 level file).  I've removed the time limit for now since it's probably not needed with this change (but feel free to prove me wrong of course).

[mobius]

a backroute fix for A Fearful Symmetry [new]