Lemmings Plus III - Development Topic

[Wafflem]

Will the VGASPEC levels be based on past video games like what happened with the original Lemmings?

[namida]

Will the VGASPEC levels be based on past video games like what happened with the original Lemmings?

Nope, but they do share a common theme, and I think most of the players will be familiar with the theme, and probably even (apart from the Rough one) the specific basises of each one. And if not, they're still at least actually position-appropriate levels in terms of difficulty, not all very easy like the ones in the original game were, so I'm sure they'll still be quite enjoyed. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

To help make the themes clear for those who *don't* recognise them but want to find out, I've also stuck to a very simple naming scheme for them; all four are titled "The ______ Level" (with the blank filled in with an appropriate single word that identifies the subject matter).


The normal styles they use (this is noted in the first post already http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> ), two use the Sky style and two use the Martian style. The Martian style actually has its palette made in such a way that VGASPECs won't interfere with it when they overwrite part of the palette; the two using the Sky style, one of these is specifically because the palette changes work extremely well for that level, the other is simply because the Sky's unique exit shape works best for that level even if the colors come out a bit weird (the window doesn't matter as the level in question relies entirely on pre-placed lemmings, just like Scatterlem does).



Unrelated: I remember at one point, I pointed out that at that time, the longest streak of completed levels without gaps was Dodgy 17 to Dodgy 22, six levels. This streak is actually no longer unbroken, as the level that was Dodgy 19 at the time has been moved elsewhere (I couldn't say where, as I forget which level it was) - the level that was Dodgy 21 at this time has also been moved, but another level has been placed as Dodgy 21 since then.
Currently, the longest unbroken streak is either six or eight levels (depending on whether you include the secret levels or not), but either way, it's Dodgy 25 to Rough 5. Whether you include secret levels or not, half the levels in this streak are Sky levels, with one level each of the other styles (two Lab levels if you include secret levels).

[namida]

Just made a new Fierce level that makes good use of a lot of new content - it uses the pre-placed lemmings, pickup skills and one-way downs all in interesting ways. The last one is especially noteworthy - off the top of my head only three other levels use them so far; one being the tutorial level for them ("Strike It Down!", it was in the first demo), one simply having a wall with a mixture of one-ways covering it (the aim being to find a way through that wall with limited skills - not an overly hard level but not too easy; it's mid-Dodgy), and the third having them merely for decoration / distraction (EDIT: Or not, now that I think about it, it does have some that are for this purpose but also has others to enforce the intended solution). I'd say this is the first level to actually make interesting use of them. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

This is the third time recently I've found an interesting use for an object I previously had mostly just used "for the sake of using it", following a very neat level I made using the updraft (low gravity zone) object the other day, and a pretty cool one using the radiation object (the one seen in the second Timid level in the 2nd demo, although this level is a Lab style one - it also has the Radiation object) a day or two before that - both of these two levels ended up in early-Rough, in fact they're right next to each other. Although in some levels, I had already used the radiation object as somewhat of a new kind of trap; but this one actually requires exploiting it to solve the level, similar to how "A Digger Would Be Handy" does. I think I've mastered using the pickup skills, pre-placed lemmings and teleporters by now, but the other new objects are just starting to get really interesting uses too. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[namida]

I'm still not going to reveal too much about the VGASPECs, but here's a little teaser. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Feel free to speculate amongst yourselves as to what they might be, though I'm not going to confirm or deny anything.



Also, Fierce now has a final level! While creating this level I didn't actually intend for it to be the final one - I had initially positioned it as Fierce 18, but between it being harder than I expected, and me tweaking it to make it even harder, plus the complexity of the solution (despite being a relatively short level; the time limit is 2:40 and it can be completed in 2:20, possibly less), it just felt like a perfect level to put at the end. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> (And plus, with how much effort this level took to get right... xD). I'd also say its appearance is deceptively non-intimidating compared to most Fierce levels... until you try to actually solve it. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
There were two tricks that I had intended to make part of the solution, but in the end, they didn't end up as part of the final result. One of them is already also used in Fierce 8, but the other one was completely unique, so that gives me something to build another level around (although without being in the context of this level as a whole, it'll most likely end up in Rough rather than an earlier Fierce level).


EDIT: Based on tester feedback, the Dodgy and Rough ones have swapped position with each other. The Timid and Fierce ones are still the same.

[Minim]

Maybe I'll speculate these designs...

Timid: Look like three different heads or three different statues of different heads.
Dodgy: Monsters by the looks of things, though with the single color on the minimap it's hard to tell what sort of monsters they are. Could be Pokemon or something like that. Well, we know they are SpongeBob squarepants shaped...
Rough: Birds!
Fierce: Probably a Space theme with aliens and/or spaceships, or a sea theme with jellyfish, or even a horror theme with ghosts and spiderwebs. I have no idea.

[namida]

Alright guys, I have some (sort of) bad news.

My uni holidays are nearly over, and from this semester, I really need to put a lot of focus into it, which means I won't have a lot of time for Lemmings. The Fierce levels especially take a lot of work to create, so it's very time consuming to work on this kind of pack. For this reason, I feel that if I try to continue with my current goal for the pack, it's probably going to take a very long time to complete, if I manage to complete it at all; either that or end up with a few levels that are duds.

With this in mind, I have decided that the best option is to cut down the number of levels it contains. So, I am only going to be doing this as 60 levels (15 per rank), plus the secret levels; so 68 levels in total (17 per rank). This wasn't an easy decision, but I feel it's the best option for both my personal life and the quality of Lemmings Plus III - I would rather have 68 good levels, than 108 with some of them being rushed levels of poor quality. Obviously, this means some of the existing Rough levels will be moved into either Dodgy or Fierce, as there's already 18 levels in there.

The other option I considered was reducing the levels per rank, and adding a fifth rank before Timid of extremely easy levels (after all, Timid isn't as easy as Mild or Nice were in the first place). However, I feel that this wouldn't add a huge amount of value to the pack, so I decided against it.

Now on the bright side - while I make no promises about when, I have decided that I will definitely be doing an LPIII Bonus Pack at some point, so that will to some extent make up for the smaller number of levels. In addition to that, the complexity and difficulty of the Fierce (and even late-Rough) levels should also compensate to some degree.

So yeah, I'm sorry about this - but I think it's for the best. And LPIII will still be coming (and probably much sooner due to this), it just won't have as much levels. Hopefully this doesn't bother anyone too much. My project for now is to decide exactly how to rearrange the existing levels. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Once that's done, I'll recalculate the completion percent to reflect the change.

EDIT: Confirmed, one level was moved to Dodgy and one was moved to Fierce. "A Lemming For Your Thoughts" (previously Rough 5) was moved into Dodgy - this level hasn't been revealed anywhere as far as I remember - while "The Soft Scale" (previously Rough 16, and included in the second demo) was moved to Fierce.
I also felt that "A Lemming For Your Thoughts" was a tad on the hard side for Dodgy as-is, so the save requirement was reduced by one lemming - this actually makes a HUGE difference to its difficulty, though it's still definitely Dodgy-worthy.

[namida]

Alright, rearranging them is done (though I still need to update my collection of replays to reflect it). At the same time I also did a tiny bit of reordering, though not much (the only levels that changed rank as opposed to just changing position were the excess levels from Rough). As a result of this, Dodgy is now complete (including the secret levels), and Rough is now complete except for one secret level - Timid and Fierce still need 3 more levels each (and Fierce needs one more secret level too). This works well, as Fierce levels that fail to turn out Fierce-worthy tend to make excellent Timid levels when given a X-of-everything skillset and similarly appropriate stats.

This also means I'll be wanting testers very soon - I have some already, but I'd like one more tester. Ideally, I'd actually be after a tester who isn't *overly* skilled - obviously, if you can't even beat Tame then this is not for you; a good benchmark (using LPII) would be someone who has little trouble with Sneaky, struggles with Cunning, and can't complete Genius. This is so that I can get better feedback on the lower ranks; I already have two testers who are very skilled and one who's not too far behind the other two.


EDIT: Made a second secret level for Rough, which means now only Timid and Fierce levels remain to do! For the record, the positions that remain empty at this stage are:
Timid 8
Timid 10
Timid 12
Fierce 11
Fierce 12
Fierce 14
Fierce 17 (secret level)
(Some of the struck-out ones have been filled by moving other levels to those positions rather than creating new ones, but in all of these cases, a new level has also been made to fill the position the other one was moved from.)

[namida]

And since I gave the positions originally of the demo levels, I think it's fair that I give their new positions following the adjustments:

First demo
"Here We Go Again!" - Timid 1
"Strike It Down!" - Timid 3
"The Perfect Storm" - Rough 2 (with changes to stats/skills)

"Boost Jumper" - Dodgy 1
"Dreamy Drift" - Dodgy 9
"Extra Skill Required" - Dodgy 11

"Viva Las Lemmine" - Rough 1

"Just A Garden-Variety Lemming" - Timid 17

Second demo
"Scatterlem" - Timid 7 8
"A Digger Would Be Handy" - Timid 11 (interestingly, this was its original position, before later being moved to Timid 18)

"If The River Runs Red..." - Dodgy 2
"Synergistic Effect" - Dodgy 8

"The Soft Scale" - Fierce 3 (no changes to this one, just relocated)
"Excavation Expedition III" - Rough 11

"Curiosity Killed The Lemming" - Fierce 1
"Crossover Arena" - Fierce 13

"Limited Requests" - Fierce 16

[namida]

Another one that turned out really good! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> This one's been placed at Fierce 14 (originally it was intended for, well, either of the other two Fierce slots xD). I don't want to reveal too much about the final level, but the second-to-last one is fine by me. xD

I previously mentioned that some existing levels, the radiation object is actually part of the solution, whereas others, it's merely a fancy trap. In this one, they simultaneously perform both functions. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> By the way, you can't really tell from the image (it's obvious in-game from the direction the "solid" part of them moves), but both one-way fields point towards the middle of the level, not away from it.

I'd say this level is a bit easier than either Crossover Arena (now placed at Fierce 13) or Fierce 15, but still very hard - it's definitely not another Genius 18. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Time limit isn't tight at all on this one - 4 minutes; my solution to this level takes about 2mins 30secs. And by the way, there's no "normal terrain + VGASPEC" combo or anything fancy going on here; I included those danger signs in the Lab style because I thought they suited it well. Actually there's one more too (the biological hazard symbol) but I haven't used it in any level yet.


Also - something else awesome I noticed! I originally was planning to slip in another LPII reference, with the styles the first 5 levels use - it was going to have a pattern of first level having one style, second level having another, third and fourth using the same as each other (but it's a third style), and the fifth level finally introducing the last style. By pure coincidence, this pattern ended up happening after the reordering! It isn't the same 0 / 2 / 3 / 3 / 1 pattern as in LPII (in this case, it's 0 / 3 / 1 / 1 / 2), but that's a minor detail. (EDIT: Hm, numbers don't say too clearly... Sky / Lab / Circuit / Circuit / Martian.)

And as a new random trivia point: No rank starts or ends with a Lab level. You already know the first levels of each ranks (first levels of the ranks in the first demo, or for Fierce, the second demo); the final levels, two are Circuit levels and the other two are Martian levels (so no rank ends with a Sky level either; but Timid begins with one).

[namida]

Alright, Fierce is now complete (including the second secret level)! I just have to make two filler levels for Timid (of course, even Timid levels need to be good levels http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />), and then it's ready to send to the testers. Following that, release will probably be a few days later - I don't expect them to test every detail of every level in a short time, it's more a matter of in case there's anything obvious that I've missed.

For those people who've offered to test - keep an eye on your PMs, it'll probably be ready within the next 24 hours or so. Just got to make those two missing levels and do a little bit of pre-test testing myself http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

I caught a potential backroute in Fierce 15 just before - I say potential because I didn't test if the backroute actually works (it should theoretically though), I just changed part of the decorative terrain that would've potentially enabled it to something that definitely won't. Since it was decorative terrain that may have enabled this, the change has zero impact on the intended solution; the replay I already had still works.

[namida]

The pre-release version of the game has now been submitted to the people who have volunteered to test it. Depending on how much and what feedback I get, expect a public release anywhere from a few days to a week or so from now. (No pressure on the testers - as I said, I don't expect every little detail tested, it's more just a matter of catching any major stuff before release - like with previous packs, I probably will end up having to update it a couple of times either way, and that's fine.)

For those who aren't on the testing team; I might still show some more preview stuff in this topic between now and release. However, when release is ready, I'll close this topic and create a new one, like I did with LPDOS and LPII.

Also - if any less-skilled players are interested in testing (with a focus especially on Timid and Dodgy), it's not too late to join the team - PM me if you're interested. I will most likely only offer the position to the first person who asks, unless I think their skill level is too high (or too low) for what I'm after. (As an (obvious) bonus to taking the position - you get early access to LPIII!) However, it's not the end of the world if I don't get another tester - LPIII will still be released either way! I've got an offer from someone who I decided to give the position to, so no further testers are needed.

As far as the identities of the testers go - they'll be credited in the game when it's released (unless they specifically ask not to be); until then, I won't say who they are. However if they themself want to say they're involved in testing, that's perfectly fine - but it's up to them.

(Also - to the testers - if I disappear off the face of the earth (let's say, if I'm gone for more than two weeks), you have permission to publicly release the test version.)

...as for me, now? Kick back, relax, probably finish off playing the rest of exit's pack while I have some peace before having to scramble to fix a billion different backroutes. xD


By the way, I had said this would be the case from the start but I can confirm it 100% for sure now: Apart from the once-per-rank level, LPIII has no repeats or even near-repeats. (Unlike LPII having the Nice 3 / Cunning 18 pair, or the Cunning 1 / 7 / 13 trio.)

[namida]

Here's a level from around the middle of Fierce. This one is very unusual for a Fierce level, given its rather minimalistic design, time limit of only 1:35 (and that still gives you about 15 seconds to spare; this is one of those levels where if you run out of time, you definitely aren't doing it right, because the right solution's timing falls into place rather than you having to adjust timing), and rather small skillset. It's a 100% required level (50 lemmings), with a skillset of 2 climbers, 2 floaters, 1 bomber, 2 builders, 1 basher and 1 digger; release rate is 99.

This level would appear to be impossible at first. In reality, it actually relies on a very obscure trick. The solution would in fact work under traditional mechanics too, if you were to implement the new object types it uses in an otherwise-traditional engine; and while extremely rare, I have been informed that the required trick has been used in custom levels before - a bit disappointing to be honest, I thought I'd come up with something incredible when I thought of it. But on the bright side, out of three testers, only one specific level it's been used in was mentioned - and it was by an author I'd only vaguely heard the name of before (and certianly hadn't seen any of his levels), so I think this level might still stump some players. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

The terrain in the middle is one-way down (it's hard to tell when they're not animating); this is quite obviously to avoid an easy backroute of just bashing through on one side and digging through (and using a builder to stop it) on the other.

This level is one I've mentioned several times before, but haven't revealed (except to the testers, who were given the chance to test this level almost as soon as it had been made). It's the one that I mentioned as originally being a Dodgy level, but being moved due to the obscurity of the trick; prior to the reduction to 15 levels per rank, it was Fierce 15; now it's at Fierce 8. Also, this level was very strongly considered for inclusion in the second demo, and only narrowly missed out to Crossover Arena.

[namida]

For those who like random trivia, here's a report on how many X-of-everything levels there are with the various amounts of skills.

I have also included, but made a special note of, levels that:

• Are X-of-everything apart from one skill having a different amount
• Are X-of-everything in the initial skillset, but contain pickup skills

The main count *includes* levels that fall into one of these two categories. Also, levels that fall into *both* are noted seperately from those that fall into either one or the other. For example, if it lists "4 levels (1 exception, 1 pickups, 1 both)", this means that there is 1 level without any of those, 1 level with one skill exception (but no pickups), 1 level with pickups (but no exception to the X-of-everything pattern in the initial skillset), and 1 level with both a one-skill exception and pickup skills.


So, here's the amounts:

0 of everything: 4 levels (2 with one skill exception, 1 with pickup skills, 1 with one skill exception and pickup skills)
1 of everything: 2 levels (1 with pickup skills)
2 of everything: 2 levels
3 of everything: 5 levels (1 with one skill exception)
4 of everything: 1 level
5 of everything: 5 levels
7 of everything: 2 levels
10 of everything: 3 levels
15 of everything: 4 levels
20 of everything: 2 levels (2 with one skill exception)
25 of everything: 1 level

And the breakdown by difficulty rank (all of them with 15, 20 or 25 are in Timid; beyond that I won't say what ones are in what ranks):
Timid: 13 levels (2 with one skill exception)
Dodgy: 7 levels (1 with one skill exception, 2 with pickup skills)
Rough: 4 levels (1 with one skill exception, 1 with both one skill exception and pickup skills)
Fierce: 7 levels (1 with one skill exception)



These include the secret levels, by the way. However, if they break the pattern on more than one skill, it isn't included - for example, one level early in Timid gives you 10 of most skills, but 0 on *two* of them; this one is not included in the counts. Likewise, it's only going by initial skillset (it's just mentioned if the level *contains* pickup skills); another early Timid level has a skillset that would qualify as a X-of-everything with one skill exception if pickup skills were included in the count (specifically, it'd be 5 climbers and 2 of everything else) but that one wasn't counted either because the initial skillset is 5 climbers, no floaters, and 2 of everything else.



As another interesting tidbit, surprisingly, Dodgy has the most levels that require 100% (9 of them, meaning that over half the rank requires 100%). However, Rough at one point has four levels in a row that require it; whereas both Dodgy and Fierce never have more than three in a row. Timid also has the same as Nice did in LPII - one level where 100% is impossible, two where it's required, with the rest being possible but not required. Also, assuming nothing is discovered later, Fierce does not have any level where 100% is possible except for those that require it; which is a first for the LP main series (though IIRC, LPII Bonus Pack had a rank that was also like this). If there's any Fierce level that might be 100%able but doesn't require it, my money's on it being Fierce 5.

[namida]

I've just released NeoLemmix V1.11n. Just to confirm - LPIII (at least the first release) will also run on NeoLemmix V1.11n. Once the levels are finalised, whatever version of NeoLemmix is current at that point of time, that version combined with the final levels will be considered the "official" version of LPIII; but as is the case with LPDOS and LPII, unofficial newer-version NeoLemmix releases will continue to be made available.

Also, the testing version (for those who have it) is indeed, as I expected it would be, no different to the final V1.11n NeoLemmix release as far as LPIII goes; the only changes made since building that version are things that don't affect LPIII (data files in Cust and Prima, and some code that's exclusive to Cust).


On the subject of the VGASPECs... I still won't say what they *are*, but one idea that was considered but not ultimately used was "The Doge Level". Actually the biggest reason for rejecting that one was the lack of being able to think of a good music to put with it.

[namida]

Alright - I've gotten a lot of feedback from the testers, plenty of backroutes pointed out (unfortunately) - got some more replays I'll be looking at later today.

I'll most likely be making a public release within the next 24 hours, after I stomp out these backroutes (hopefully without introducing new ones xD) and also improve one level that's functionally fine but is in major need of more decoration. Of course, this is partly dependant on the tester's results too - if a lot of tricky-to-fix backroutes show up, I may need to take a bit longer.

Feedback on the levels' quality has been very positive - there's a few levels with mixed responses (some like them, some don't) but none that were universally disliked, so this should be a very good pack. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> There's always been a few levels with mixed responses in my packs anyway - Cunning 4 from LPII is one that I especially remember being such.