Lemmings Plus III - Development Topic

[namida]

By the way - although you can't set it in the INI file, you can enable cheat codes in the demo by entering "DEMOCHEATS" as a code.

[namida]

So, I've made some changes to the skill panel... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> I also changed the minimap/bridge colors (which are also used in the new panel http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> ) of the Sky and Circuit styles to actually be a shade of the set's primary color, previously I'd intentionally not done so but with this change I think it works better this way. (The skill panel text has been changed from the default green to use the style's color, and such color is also used in places on the skillbar itself.)

[Minim]

Interesting pictures. I like this idea and most of it works well; however, I prefer the outline of the skill number to stay black rather than colourised. It's easier on the eye that way. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> The white outline absolutely doesn't work with white numbers.

[namida]

I found that with the new boxes, the black outline didn't look too good. I could change it to a set color, though, although it'd then have to be one of the fixed palette colors... perhaps I could just change the Sky style's color to a darker shade, so the border is clearly seperate from the numbers?

[Minim]

I found that with the new boxes, the black outline didn't look too good. I could change it to a set color, though, although it'd then have to be one of the fixed palette colors... perhaps I could just change the Sky style's color to a darker shade, so the border is clearly seperate from the numbers?

That's a better idea, either gray or light blue would be fine by me. In my previous post I was meant to say that the white color-clashes with the text, which made it difficult to read the skill number.

[namida]

I've adjusted it to a darkish gray. I didn't really want to go with light blue because blue will almost certianly be the primary color of the 4th graphic set? (Notice the theme? Red, Green, Blue http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> although not quite in that order)

Also, we FINALLY have another level using the pickup skills (actually this level uses a lot of new objects - pickup skills, pre-placed lemmings and teleporters)! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> Still working on it though, so haven't included it in the completed level stats yet. I'll post a pic when it's done. Most likely position it's going in is Dodgy 21... which actually means there's now a streak of five levels in a row that are complete (Dodgy 17 to Dodgy 21 - did have a Dodgy 22 at one point but it was moved to Rough 15 and then to Fierce 15; I thought almost right way it'd be too hard for Dodgy but based on feedback from a couple of people I sent it to, I decided that it was too hard even for Rough - for those who I sent it to, "Dead Is The New Black" is the level I'm referring to here.)


EDIT: Here's the image. Just to be clear, there isn't a second receiver hidden anywhere; both teleporters link to the same receiver. And the pre-placed lemming actually begins facing left (NeoLemEdit just doesn't render it as such when that option is set, at least not yet). Not that it matters; the solution works fine on either side (at one point during development it only worked on one side, hence the lemming facing left, but I've since fixed that).

[namida]

Uploaded a new version of the demo. There's no huge need to redownload unless you just want to, though. It does NOT include the new Rough 2 version of "The Perfect Storm", it has the same version of this level as the first release of the demo. The only change to any of the content is in Dodgy 1; a minor terrain issue has been fixed. It shouldn't impact any solutions though; you had to actually go out of your way to trigger it generally.

However, it is also now running on V1.07n of NeoLemmix (the original demo ran on V1.06n). Which means you now get a score when you complete a level. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

http://www.mediafire.com/download/7q38qm2em1757mg/LPIIIDemo1.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/download/7q38qm2em1757mg/LPIIIDemo1.zip

(EDIT: I found a minor bug (in all V1.07ns), or rather not a bug but still something that needed to be fixed - due to the congratulation screen, no score would display on the final level. I've reuploaded this demo with that fixed.)

[namida]

Okay, here's my replays.

Included are:
> Normal solutions to all levels.
> Accessing the secret level.
> 100% solutions for all the levels where it's possible but not required. (the three Timid levels and Dodgy 1)

[namida]

Some of you might've just noticed the completion % in the topic title jumped up by over 10%. This is mostly because I miscalculated it before; although in addition to correcting that I have done a bit more work on the Martian style today. No new levels yet, but now that those SEGA remakes are out of the way (I wanted to get them complete before I made the new player, and I wanted to make the new player so I could play some Genesis levels to see if I get any ideas - it has given me a few; playing the LPIIB levels with different gimmicks also gave me a few ideas too - including a VERY creative way to use one-way fields!), it's back to working on this. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> Also with actually PLAYING some levels from time to time too, because I tend to get a lot of good ideas based on both the actual solutions as well as the things I try in failed attempts.

EDIT: Okay, I've now made one new Timid level, as well as moving an existing Timid level (along with adjustments to the stats and skillset) to Dodgy since I found quite a clever solution to it with a restricted skillset. (EDIT: And - no modifications, just a second judgement of it's difficulty - moved this new one to Dodgy as well.)

[namida]

Here we have the first level with no entrance! (Obviously, due to solely using pre-placed lemmings.)

It's an early Timid level, designed to introduce pre-placed lemmings. It's fairly simple. Skillset is 5 of each and requirement is 80%.

(EDIT: Reuploaded it. No changes to the level, just to the image - I forgot to crop out the empty black space on the sides before.)

[namida]

Okay, so here's a design decision I'm going with that I think will increase the incentive to use a variety of styles. Basically, I'm having not too much overlap between the object types the styles contain. In general, apart from the essential types (exit and entrance), and the pre-placed lemmings, pickup skills and secret triggers, I'm limiting each object type to being in three styles (if it's a type that isn't new to NeoLemmix) or two styles (if it is), and in fact some will be exclusive for one style. For example, the low gravity object (or "updraft" as I'm calling it) is going to be unique to the sky style. So far also, only the Martian style has a triggered trap, although I'll most likely put one in the Lab style too. This is so that the styles will have more of a different feel to them than simply a different look.

An interesting fact is that the three styles so far all have 13 objects each, although there's a variety in how many *types* they have - for example, one-way arrows requires three objects, due to having three different directions, while one-way fields are the same (except with only two directions), and teleporters/receivers and locked exits/buttons are similarly paired and thus require two objects. Surprisingly, if you count these "paired" objects as one single object type, the Circuit style is actually the one with the least variety (but it has the largest variety of terrain pieces).


And one more piece of news - the Martian style is now complete! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> While I might add a new gimmick or two rather than using one I've already come up with, for the most part once the Lab style is done it's full focus on level design! I'll probably wait a while before starting on that one, though - the desert style was started quite late in LPII's development and didn't end up underused or uninteresting, after all.

Also, now have the once-per-rank level. Actually, I more realised an existing level suited that role well. As I said, it's much more similar to No Salvation than to Floater Frenzy or We All Fall Down; though this time the versions of it are in pairs. The terrain layout is the same between all four, and the skillset follows a pattern similar to what No Salvation did throughout all four, but the other stats are paired - the paired ones have the same release rate, time limit and required percent saved, as well as being at the same position in their ranks, and in each pair one version has 20 lemmings and the other has 40. The first three can be solved via a similar solution (though harder to execute each time), while the fourth requires a very different approach altogether. Apart from that, also made one completely new level in late Dodgy, and going to probably do some more levels soon.

[namida]

This level is the first non-Martian level I've made in a while. It's also the pack's obligatory 1-of-everything level ("Extra Skill Required" isn't quite a 1-of-everything level due to the use of pickup skills http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> ), and unlike LPDOS's and LPII's such levels, requires 100%. Don't let the simple layout fool you - this is a VERY hard level, possibly the hardest LPIII level so far - it's already in Fierce, but I'm thinking about whether to move it to a later position within Fierce. There is one possible backroute I'm aware of (haven't tested if it actually works yet) that I'll have to think of a way to patch up...

EDIT: I thought of a way I can fix the backroute, though at the cost of sacrificing one of the two major tricks of the level (though it is the by far less major of the two, at least)... I might do this if I can't come up with any better way to fix it...

EDIT: Not only did I manage to fix it, but I managed to fix it WITHOUT removing the need to use that trick! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> In fact - previously with *perfect* timing (we're talking at least 4 or 5 pixel-perfect moves here as well as release rate manipulation) it was possible to bypass that trick (although using it was the easier option), now there doesn't appear to be any way around it at all, so this is kind of a double-fix! I've updated the image with the new version of the level.

To be honest, I think this might even be the hardest level I've ever made, even surpassing Genius 19 from LPII.


I've also added a new gimmick, which is going to be used for the Fierce secret levels. I won't say just yet what it is (but the tutorial level for it will be in the 2nd demo as a secret level), but it's based on one of the challenge topics that turned out quite interesting.

[namida]

Hey look, another mysterious strange ZIP file appeared... this time with a less suspicious name. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

http://www.mediafire.com/download/79dqs0de0yb1ds1/LPIIIDemo2.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.mediafire.com/download/79dqs0de0yb1ds1/LPIIIDemo2.zip

Enjoy. And this one includes some Fierce levels this time. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> "Dead Is The New Black" isn't in there, but "Crossover Arena" is. (I actually couldn't decide which one of those two to put in, and resorted to randomness to decide. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> ) And as mentioned in the above post, it contains the new gimmick too. This one is FAR more well-hidden than the secret level in the first demo, though.

As for styles, it contains 3 Sky levels, 1 Circuit level and 5 Martian levels. One new object type also appears, though I won't say what it is - play and find out! (I have mentioned it before, but haven't released a level with it before.)

I'll release replays in a few days, or if you send me your ones (either in this topic or by PM, I'm not fussed) I'll send them to you privately - don't worry if you haven't quite beaten all of them if there's some you can't beat (especially the Fierce ones, as they're two of the hardest levels in Lemmings Plus history), as long as I can see you've made an effort at the majority of them I'm happy to give you the replays.


EDIT: Should also note. Since releasing this demo, the save requirement in the level that's Timid 1 in this demo has been dropped to 70%.

[namida]

Added the 100%ability list to the second post on the first page. This time there's quite a few levels where 100% can't be done.

If any can be improved, I think it'll be either Timid 2 to 98% or Dodgy 2 to 100%. I don't know, there MIGHT be a way to save 93% on Rough 1, but I doubt it (see spoilered parts below). Those two are also probably the most fiddly ones to get the highest possible % on - Timid 2 requires some good fine-tuning, while Dodgy 2 requires a completely different (and harder) approach than the normal one.

My thinking on Rough 1 is because the only solution I've found requires a bomber and two blockers that there's no way to free (a third blocker is also needed but that one can be freed). The bomber is the only way available to stop a digger that's used to trap the crowd. However - it might be possible to avoid this bomber with some good timing if it's possible to simply delay the crowd / keep them at a distance when there's open gaps.

EDIT: I managed to improve Timid 2 to 98%, and at the same time also prove it possible to beat without using blockers (not that I ever thought it wouldn't be, I just wasn't 100% sure that it was). No luck as of yet on Dodgy 2. The 97% solution for Timid 2 still holds the high score, because the 98% solution takes longer and uses nearly twice as many builders (either 5 builders + 1 blocker, or 6 builders + 0 blockers, to save 98%; vs 3 of each for 97%.)


Also - it's confirmed that Dodgy 1 has a backroute. If your solution involves climbing up the steel near the entrance, your solution is a backroute sorry. So far, the other levels seem backroute-proof - Dodgy 2 does have two very different solutions, but since the intended one is the easier and more obvious of the two I'm not declaring the other one a backroute. I must say, I find it amusing that it was one of the relatively simple levels that had a backroute show up. (Rough 2 might *seem* like it has a backroute, but it's the Rough version of the once-per-rank level, and it's just a fairly easy level - unfortunately, messing with it to increase the difficulty might interfere with the solution to the Fierce version, which is very hard. If I can come up with a way to make it harder that *doesn't* interfere with the Fierce version, I might implement it in the full game - but as it stands, the Timid, Dodgy and Fierce versions all work quite well, it just so happens that the Rough version got into the demo because there were too many other levels I wanted to put in for the other 3 ranks, and wasn't really any other Rough level that I wanted to use.)

One more thing; the first level of Timid actually plays the wrong music. xD It should play track #6 but actually plays track #1 - not sure if I set the file wrong (its old position would've had this track) or if I just forgot to set one and thus it's doing it automatically since it's level 1. Not an overly huge deal though, I guess.


Just made a new Rough level, it's loosely based off Cheeky 20 from LPII (specifically, the NeoLemmix version - the level is exactly the same but the required approach is slightly different). It was one of those ones where everything just falls into place perfectly while designing it - seems airtight as far as backroutes go too. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> I love it when that happens. It also has probably the most interesting use of teleporters so far (I did say it was loosely based of Cheeky 20 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> ).

[namida]

We now have a second Frenzy level. I'm probably going to leave it at just these two for the whole pack. Whereas the first one has infinite of a skill simply because it's floater based and requires more than 99 lemmings saved, this one I think you're going to be VERY thankful for the infinite uses of the skill in question. (Without Frenzy, it could probably be solved fairly easily with 25 or so tops. My solution used 161, but it's probably possible with far less as I wasn't particularly trying to be efficient - I was just trying to ensure the level is possible.)

So yeah, we have one Frenzy in Dodgy and one in Fierce - both are within the first 10 levels of the rank. Timid and Rough won't have any frenzies, most likely.


I also just realised it's been about a month since this project was started - well, since it was officially announced, anyway. Just past half way on completion, so I guess it'll probably be done quicker than LPDOS was but it's already taking longer than LPII did. It's a combination of being slightly busy, having to come up with ideas I haven't already used (or at least finding new ways to use them), and of course that LPIII is a bit more complex than LPII due to new object types and such. Which reminds me - I really need to make more use of the pre-placed skills! (There's still only two levels that use them - Dodgy 18 and Dodgy 20 xD). At the same time though, I'm trying to use them in ways that actually add something to the level, not merely act as obvious backroute fixes (I'm fine with using them as fixes some of the time, but not if it's blatantly obvious that that's why they're there).


Okay, so I came up with one that turned out somewhat easy but still pretty interesting. The basic idea is that you've got a sealed-off (with steel) section at the top containing a couple of pre-placed lemmings and a lot of pickup skills, one of which will be picked up just by letting the lemmings walk, the rest of which require taking action however simple it may be to reach most of them - but the key is, you can't reach all of them, so you have to work out which ones you need and which ones you don't. The bottom part is a fairly normal and relatively simple level. The initial skillset is, well, nothing, so you're entirely reliant on the skills you choose to pick up - and you must balance these between actually solving the lower part (there's no exit in the upper part, so the pre-placed lemmings can't be saved) and picking up more skills to use. It does sound complex, but the level isn't actually that hard in practice; the placement of it is very early Dodgy. (Which still means all the levels with pickup skills so far are in Dodgy... xD)

EDIT: Here, have an image. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Just for reference, the climber and the skills on the ledges can be picked up from the ground. The others require building, though all of them can be obtained with a single builder each - the bomber and the builder next to it can be grabbed with a single builder for both of them.