NeoLemmix (Player: V1.26n-C | Editor: V1.26n-B)

[Ron_Stard]

I have one suggestion for Neo-games: have you thought about creating a general gimmick or .ini option for the exploders' behaviour to be like traditional Lemmings games? (i.e., the countdown from 5 -or from another configurable number of seconds-).

[namida]

In general, I see that as being an archaic behavior that only serves to add fake difficulty, which is why it's removed - because the bomber is a useful skill for players and designers alike, but the timing it adds no real value. However, if there's ever a pressing need, I have built into the source code a compile-time switch which can restore the classic bombers (so for example, if I was building a custom-made player for someone who really really wanted timed bombers in their pack).

It's also worth noting that regardless, the functionality is still there - the change simply works by setting the countdown to 0 instead of 5. But even in a player that uses the instant ones, certain conditions can still give rise to a timed bomber - specifically, the nuke (which still starts a countdown from 5), and the radiation object (a NeoLemmix-exclusive object which turns any lemming that passes it into a timed bomber, starting from 9).*

I had considered even allowing it to be set on a per-level basis, but decided against it for similar reasons to why I hardcoded the "Sixes Not!" special effect instead of setting it in the level file (I actually did even write code to store that effect in the level file, but later decided to remove it - or rather disable it; all the code's still there except the line to actually read the value from the file has been commented out) - although of course, the traditional version would need that to be hardcoded *anyway*. xD


* I should add, so I don't seem hypocrital: My logic on this being okay is that the burden with the timing in this case ends up falling more so on the level designer than the player - there's no guesswork as to where to start the bomber, only a matter of where (and how) to get him for his detonation 9 seconds later.

[Minim]

In general, I see that as being an archaic behavior that only serves to add fake difficulty, which is why it's removed - because the bomber is a useful skill for players and designers alike, but the timing it adds no real value. However, if there's ever a pressing need, I have built into the source code a compile-time switch which can restore the classic bombers (so for example, if I was building a custom-made player for someone who really really wanted timed bombers in their pack).

It's also worth noting that regardless, the functionality is still there - the change simply works by setting the countdown to 0 instead of 5. But even in a player that uses the instant ones, certain conditions can still give rise to a timed bomber - specifically, the nuke (which still starts a countdown from 5), and the radiation object (a NeoLemmix-exclusive object which turns any lemming that passes it into a timed bomber, starting from 9).

I was about to say the same thing too, but namida explained it very well already. It adds unnecessary frustration (Having to replay the level on any mistiming), and bombing the blocker is just a waste of time as well.

Having said that, there was one level I created back in 2008 which timed bombers were necessary to remove a backroute. Sadly, I may have to edit it again as someone found a backroute to it. It can be found in lmset02.

My favourite gimmicks so far are the Backward walkers and Karoshi. However I can think of a few more gimmicks. Setting the fall height (which I know I've been talking about so many times) to a personal preference, disabling the particles on bombers (Something that's already on EricLang's Lemmix), and making temporary blockers (Blockers only stop for a few seconds, then start moving again)

[namida]

You're not the first to suggest temporary blockers as a gimmick, actually. I suppose it'd be almost expected as part of the lazy lemmings gimmick. xD I might implement this; if I do I'll probably also change the Timid secret levels to use that in addition to the existing laziness.

A variable fall height setting could definitely be added. I can also easily restore the enable/disable particles option, I had removed it since I didn't think there was much need for it, but the underlying code is still there (it's just always assumed to be enabled). (EDIT: The particle option has been re-added).


Just wondering, how did timed bombers prevent the backroute? Is it to do with using a bomber in the first 5 seconds?


By the way, I've done the X91/92 levels ready for V1.09n, and I'll probably do Prima before releasing it too.

[Minim]

Just wondering, how did timed bombers prevent the backroute? Is it to do with using a bomber in the first 5 seconds?

Say the level has a short-length floor with the entrance directly above it. Even when the lemming appears from the entrance, clicking the bomber skill wouldn't work, otherwise the timer would be too long for him to stay on the floor and break it. He'll need to find more land so that he can come back to blow up the floor. I hope this makes sense.

As for the particle option, (Which were very eye-catching in the Psychedelic graphic set) the problem I get is that the game freezes temporarily every time I press the space bar while the particles are showing. Disabling that removes the problem.

[Ron_Stard]

In general, I see that as being an archaic behavior that only serves to add fake difficulty, which is why it's removed - because the bomber is a useful skill for players and designers alike, but the timing it adds no real value. However, if there's ever a pressing need, I have built into the source code a compile-time switch which can restore the classic bombers (so for example, if I was building a custom-made player for someone who really really wanted timed bombers in their pack).

It's also worth noting that regardless, the functionality is still there - the change simply works by setting the countdown to 0 instead of 5. But even in a player that uses the instant ones, certain conditions can still give rise to a timed bomber - specifically, the nuke (which still starts a countdown from 5), and the radiation object (a NeoLemmix-exclusive object which turns any lemming that passes it into a timed bomber, starting from 9).

I had considered even allowing it to be set on a per-level basis, but decided against it for similar reasons to why I hardcoded the "Sixes Not!" special effect instead of setting it in the level file (I actually did even write code to store that effect in the level file, but later decided to remove it - or rather disable it; all the code's still there except the line to actually read the value from the file has been commented out) - although of course, the traditional version would need that to be hardcoded *anyway*. xD

I was about to say the same thing too, but namida explained it very well already. It adds unnecessary frustration (Having to replay the level on any mistiming), and bombing the blocker is just a waste of time as well.

Having said that, there was one level I created back in 2008 which timed bombers were necessary to remove a backroute. Sadly, I may have to edit it again as someone found a backroute to it. It can be found in lmset02.

My favourite gimmicks so far are the Backward walkers and Karoshi. However I can think of a few more gimmicks. Setting the fall height (which I know I've been talking about so many times) to a personal preference, disabling the particles on bombers (Something that's already on EricLang's Lemmix), and making temporary blockers (Blockers only stop for a few seconds, then start moving again)

I understand very well your points of view, but I was thinking about though levels which have become pure doodles, paraphrasing Tricky's first level name, due to such comfort: from the not so difficult "Luvly Jubly" and "Diet Lemmingaid" (Tricky 16 & 17) to the masterproof "Look Before You Leap" (Havoc 20), passing through levels which require some levels of ability, observation and precision, like "It's Time To Get Up!" (Mayhem 19) and even "ONWARD AND UPWARD" (Wild 13). All those levels are far too easy without the countdown, they have no difficulty at all.

P.S. I've just realized there is no button for multi-quotating. I had to do it by hand http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

[namida]

Okay, I didn't do Prima in the end. I figured getting the NeoCustLemmix update with the Sega style included was a bit overdue, for one thing, and also I'm sure it's much awaited with the disable gimmick music option. Note that some features that I said I might include haven't been - doesn't mean they won't be, just means they'll be in (most likely) V1.10n.


NeoLemmix V1.09n Update
*  In players that have gimmick forcing enabled, an option has been
   added to the INI file to disable automatic gimmick music. (Of course,
   it will still play if a level has music number set to 255.)
*  Original Lemmings and Holiday Lemmings 94 are now using the Amiga
   version levels. (ONML levels are identical in Amiga and DOS.) These
   still haven't been adjusted for NeoLemmix though.
*  Added the two-player levels to the Original player. (There's no support
   for two-player mode and I don't plan to add it; it's just the *levels*.)
*  NeoLemmix will no longer attempt to apply autosteel on graphic sets that
   don't support it, even if a level is marked as using it. Note that any
   custom graphic sets that use autosteel will need to be recompiled with the
   latest version of LemSet in order for NeoLemmix to recognize them as having
   autosteel support. (Or you can manually do it, just activate the 0x04 bit
   on the byte at 0x01 in the GROUNDxO.DAT file.)
*  Fixed the M and S shortcut keys which were broken by the last update.
*  The "P" key can now be used to pause (F11 still works too).
*  Restored the option to hide explosion particles.
*  Added a Neo version of LemmixPlayerExtra.
*  NeoCustLemmix now includes the Sega style and the first 3 LPIII styles.
*  Xmas Lemmings 91/92 NeoLemmix version is no longer considered beta, but the
   first proper NeoLemmix version (V1n/1.09n).

Downloads are here:
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ye7eqz069lm3q/V1.09n" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ye7eqz069lm3q/V1.09n

[Minim]

I had a go at your NeoLemEdit for the first time. (Apparently couldn't get it working on my Windows 7 laptop, maybe I needed a DOSbox to get that working? I used my big XP computer instead) It's quite good at first, and I've made a nicely working test level, the autosteel works perfectly and the graphic sets are easy to navigate, but it's a bit slow and worst of all it takes a while for me to get used to the controls, (No Ctrl+V?) as well as having to press enter to exit an option. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I was quite confused by the +/- buttons, because I could just press those on the main keyboard as well as (or rather than, even) those on the numeric pad.

As for the terrain pieces, it's a bit tedious cycling through the terrain IDs to get to the last one, especially on graphic sets with more terrain pieces, such as Fire and Rock. If there is a feature which cycles through the terrain in a loop (Say it's the dirt set, and piece 49 is the last terrain piece, when I click the Terrain button I want to press "-" to go to that piece instead of having to hold + every time), or shows the terrain ID so that it can be modified, I'd be more than happy to create some more levels. For now, I'm sticking with Eric's Lemmix Editor, but that's just my personal opinion.

[namida]

You don't need DOSBox, it's a windows application. I'm using Windows 7 and it works fine for me, what exact error does it give?

Anyway, the +/- thing is only a temporary solution until I implement a proper terrain/object selection menu (I will probably leave those in too, though - they're quite useful!), but that's a very good suggestion of implementing a wrap-around, I'll do that in the next version.

By the way - just keep in mind that at the moment, there's no option to enforce the DOS/Lemmix limitations, so you need to manually keep an eye on those if you aren't designing for NeoLemmix.

I don't think LemEdit had any copy/paste options either; but you can duplicate the currently selected piece by pressing Insert. (In future, this will also be doable via the mouse.)


Anyway, if you find neither Lemmix nor NeoLemEdit to be that great, there is one other option: jLevelBuilder. It's more suited for Lemmini than DOS/Lemmix, but it's still definitely usable for the latter. (Tip: If using it for DOS/Lemmix, set the alignment grids to 16x2 for objects, 2x2 for terrain and 8x8 for steel; and make sure your steel piece sizes are multiples of 8 and don't exceed 128x128.) I myself used it for a small portion of the LPII levels (though the majority I used traditional LemEdit) - Genius 5 was mostly (but not entirely) made in jLevelBuilder - and it's definitely not bad, I just prefer LemEdit's interface.

[Minim]

You don't need DOSBox, it's a windows application. I'm using Windows 7 and it works fine for me, what exact error does it give?

Anyway, the +/- thing is only a temporary solution until I implement a proper terrain/object selection menu (I will probably leave those in too, though - they're quite useful!), but that's a very good suggestion of implementing a wrap-around, I'll do that in the next version.

It was only a missing dll file, which I've fixed without any problems. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

I got the program working on my laptop, but realised to my horror that my laptop has no numpad keys, http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" /> making it literally impossible to cycle through different terrain/objects. Hopefully the +/- problem (or even another method, for example the < and > keys) can be fixed in the next update. I'm looking forward to it.

[namida]

Proper menus for those items is the next "big" feature I have planned (ie: the one that'll bring it to V0.70, rather than just 0.62). However, if I do a V0.62 update before that (bugfixes, minor features, etc) I'll make sure to put in a different set of shortcut keys that should be more friendly to users of compact keyboards - my laptop has a full-size so I didn't think about it, to be honest.

Can't you use the Fn key combined with... I think it's P and ; usually?

[Simon]

If you want something in this direction, make every hotkey freely remappable. >_>;; You never know the user's layout or physical location of special keys.

-- Simon

[namida]

That's actually a good point. I'll look into doing that.

I'm making a change to the Basher mechanics for V1.10n. The basher no longer only doing terrain checks on odd-numbered strokes makes it often more difficult to bash where there's dips in uneven terrain, or poles close together but with small gaps, etc. So to compensate for this, I'm increasing the size of the area the basher checks for terrain in - up to V1.09n it's been a 4x1 area, from V1.10n it'll be 7x2 (beginning the same distance away from the lemming but extending further, and the extra vertical pixel checked is the one immediately *below* the currently checked one - though I might change this to the one above, I'll do some more testing to see which one feels better). Since no one apart from myself has really made any NeoLemmix-targetted levels yet, this isn't going to break anything, but keep it in mind if you're designing levels for it between now and then.

[Ron_Stard]

I've found a bug on CovoxNeo - Tricky 1 ("Animal or Vegetable?"): once the lemmings reach the exit platform, they refuse to get into home, unless a bridge is built; this doesn't happen with the Lemmix versions.

[namida]

Ah! I had noticed this and was going to fix it, but completely forgot. I'll make sure to fix it in the next update - I added a note about it to my todo list (I keep that and the changelog in the same file, so that I'm sure to see it when I'm doing updates).

In the meantime, here's a fixed version you can use with LookForLVLFiles. (EDIT: Removed, as V1.10n has been released which contains a fixed version.)