Lemmings Plus II

[namida]

Alright, update has been uploaded. Enjoy.

[Akseli]

Would be appreciated if others could send me their solutions (to these levels or others) so I can catch as much as possible.

At least http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=879.msg18204#msg18204" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">geoo uploaded some of his solutions, and I see that you haven't downloaded them yet.


Okay, before I move on to the V2, here's some thoughts that I've written up at times:

Overall:
Psychedelic tileset was the least favourite of mine at the beginning because it was so hard for the eyes, but now I've get used to it already, and you decorated your Psychedelic levels the best. Desert, Tree and Purple levels had often large areas of similar terrain making them look little bland (Nice 17, Cunning 2, Genius 4 just for some examples).

In comparison how quickly you created this level pack, in my opinion this pack is excellent. There are so many great levels, but on the other hand also that kind of levels that feel like "filler" levels, such as Cheeky 4 and Cheeky 18. The difficulty curve is characteristic for you, having sudden challenge types of levels and then easier among the hard levels, that's actually really fun when I am in that mood.

Level titles feel similar than in official game, often having a random adjective or attribute and then the word "Lemming(s)" or just some idioms with Lemmings or Lems or Lemmys in them. There are some puns and popular culture references also like in the official games. :b

Nice rating:
Nice 4: Now Figure This One Out... - The first a bit more complex level.
Nice 7: Together We Sand – A nice beginner's puzzle, one of the best levels in this rating.
Nice 8: Evolved Lemming - Resembled a bit "A Beast of a level" from L1.
Nice 9: Something's Not Right Here... - This gave me a big smile on my face when I realized what's going on here. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> Maybe my favourite level of the Nice rating.
Nice 16: These Lasers Aren't So Fun... - Seemed at first an enormous endurance type level, but then it turned out to be pretty quickly solvable, which is a nice detail.
Nice 17: Lemmings Getting' Down – An easy one in the late rating, this kind of levels desire a bit more effort to the decoration, I think this is one of the most concrete examples of that you said you're capable of making levels in a couple of minutes. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Edit: Okay, I see you've updated this, nice!
Nice 18: MEGALEMMINGS! – Yes I like this kind of level ideas. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> I remember that at least UltimateJay1989 created similar lemming statues in his level, but here they are in correct colours!
Nice 19: Live And Let Lem – The title resembles a little "You Live and Lem" from L1. :b This would be the hardest level of the Nice rating even without the death fall start.
Nice 20: Dungeon Of Danger – Lots of purple terrain and wandering around, could perhaps be a bit more interesting because of its endurance type level nature.

Cheeky rating:
Cheeky 1: What Does The Lemming Say? – This must be an Ylvis reference. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> This is the most versatilely designed Tree style level, nice!
Cheeky 13: Above The Forests - A level that utilizes the instant bomber mechanic awesomely. This could be a bit annoying level with the original mechanics, but now this is plain fun, I liked this level a lot! Another level that utilized the instant bomber mechanic in such a clever way is Cunning 4: Droppin' Bombs.
Cheeky 15: To The Treehouse! – Now when I played this my second time, I found a solution that I suspect to be the intended one. This is a high-quality moderate difficulty level, the solution is awesome, this must be my favourite Cheeky level.
Cheeky 18: Oasis Crossing - One level that feels a bit unnecessary "filler" level, and there's hard to invent any use for the right entrance lemmings.
Cheeky 20: Kickback Scheme – Resembled immediately Havoc level "Lemming about town", and I'd recall that this was one of the hardest levels for you in ONML. I enjoyed tons of 'Kickback Scheme', although it was pretty clear what you have to do there, it's just another really clean solution without any quirks, it's easy to carry out, this was real fun!

Sneaky rating:
Sneaky 2: Ascenario – Resembled a bit Medi 4 "Getting There..." from LPDOS. This was a lot harder, though.
Sneaky 3: Tall Tales – Now I have to admit that I didn't recognize the connection between this and "This Is..." from LPDOS. I solved Tall Tales in a bit weird way, also.
Sneaky 7: Heroic Heights – Yes, I know that I don't have to turn the builder with a blocker. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I used it before I noticed that you need to use that second builder, and I didn't go back to change my solution anymore. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I think this builder trick was used few times around this level pack.
Sneaky 9: Rolling Rampage – A really solid level, I enjoyed this a lot.
Sneaky 16: Dive From The Dunes – Resembled immediately Cascade from L1. No, I didn't try to solve this in a similar way than Cascade the first time, I sent two worker lemmings down right from the beginning. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Another enjoyable level.
Sneaky 18: Two-Pronged Approach – I liked a lot my solution, which is a backroute. I'm excitingly waiting for the updated version of this level.
Sneaky 20: The Impossible Level – This was really hard, should be in the Genius rating imo and you didn't comment my solution, so I guess it's supposed to be solved in a similar way than I did? Anyway, it needs some luck with the grid alignments, knowledge of tricks and precision.

Cunning rating:
Tuned Lemming levels – You have really good ideas with these repeat like levels always! I remember how fascinated I was back then when playing LPDOS and I considered "No Salvation" level group as a phenomenal idea. I loved also The Downwards Mission – The Upwards Mission level pair, well done!
Cunning 2: Treecell – This was the big roadblock level for me in this pack, and I used the most time for solving this one. I tried really crazy solutions, even some ridiculous glitches and all before I found the correct one, which is well hidden I'd say! I overlooked that option totally. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Cunning 4: Droppin' Bombs – Awesome namida, awesome. This would be a super annoying level with normal mechanics, but with the instant bomber mechanic this level brings a whole new element in the Lemmings games, and it was endlessly enjoyable to play something completely new like this that I hadn't played before.
Cunning 8: 404: Exit Not Found – Resembled immediately "Dude, Where's My Exit?" levels from Ji Hoon's remake. Yes, I found another exit, which is invisible. :b A nice title!
Cunning 9: No Chance! – Resembled immediately "Going Up......" from L1. But this is actually easier...
Cunning 12: Jailbreak – Here was a lot going on, this was one of the hardest Cunning levels. I used a notable amount of not so basic techniques in this level.
Cunning 15: Don't Panic – I found the simplicity of this level elegant.
Cunning 17: Cyclic Lemming – A really wonderful puzzle level, this might be my favourite Cunning level.
Cunning 18: The Upwards Mission – It took awkwardly long from me to figure out how many builders do I need to get out from the entrance cell. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />
Cunning 20: The Secrets of the Lemmings - Another enjoyable level with multiple solutions.

Genius rating:
Genius 2: Stampede!!! – A havoc feeling level. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> There really were much fewer ways to control the crowd than I thought at first.
Genius 3: If You're Lemmy And You Know It – LMFAO reference? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Another level that as a player you don't have too many ideas at first. If my solution is the intended one, then great work, this was pretty cool, loved the creative usage of the miner. Edit: You've fixed this level, well let's see this again later!
Genius 4: Diet Control – Again, the miner is used in a delightfully clever way, niceee! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />
Genius 8: Panic Attack – A magnificent level. One of my favourites of the whole pack. Again, it took a moment to figure out where even to start, and the order of operations delighted me enormously, when I finally got that right. I like the title, too!
Genius 11: Dungeon of Death – A unique feeling level. So much leeway in how to do it, but the level still fits in Genius imo.
Genius 15: If A Lemming Should Come By - If my solution is okay, then this level is too easy for Genius rating even for being a breather level. Same thing with Genius 18: "A Little Breather", too. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> But it's again your style to make levels with different difficulties near each other in the pack.
Genius 17: No Construction Zone – A nicely designed level, I had a lot of fun with this, although this felt easier than "To The End!", could be just also that I was less experienced back then.
Genius 19: Wrong Way, Mister Lemming – Yeahh! Even though this level is this small, it was one of the very hardest levels of the game. Love this! Aaand edit: You've fixed this one too, I'll have to look at it again. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

I didn't comment too much levels I knew I backrouted, I'll wait for the fixes. Also might comment a lot more, this was now for the beginning. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[namida]

All the fixes are up. Any level I didn't fix, I've decided not to consider a backroute. (EDIT: Though there is one more in Geoo's solutions that I'd somehow missed before, specifically on Sneaky 18. All other backroutes in his were fixed by the V2 levels update.)

[namida]

Solution uploads updated:

Nice replays updated to V2 (actually I did this at the same time as updating the player, I just didn't mention it)
Cheeky replays added
Added the two replays for the secret level to Nice's replays (the one of how to find it, and the solution to the level itself)

[Akseli]

Attached my solutions for the updated levels. There are multiple alternate solutions for some levels. Genius 19 was the only one I didn't beat yet (again). http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Also now shared my original Genius solutions if someone else wants to see them.

[namida]

Sneaky 12 hasn't changed, not sure why you included a new replay. =P

Well done on finding three of the secret levels, and also on once again 100%ing Sneaky 5. I'm leaving that level as is now, I only fixed this because of it being a trigger area problem that wasn't behaving the way it would be expected to.

Sneaky 13, you have now found the intended solution. =)

Sneaky 18: All backroutes. A and C can be both patched with one fix, while B, D and geoo's backroute also can all be patched with one fix. The problem is, this level can only be modified one more time (due to my rule of two backroute fix updates per level (not including the demos))... so I have to be pretty sure I've caught everything, especially since I really like the intended solution to this one.

Sneaky 19: Well done, that's the intended solution. Also - nice work on the timing; I had to use floaters.

Cunning 6: This is definitely close enough to the intended solution that I can allow it - the "clever bash", as such, is there. =P

Cunning 10: All four are backroutes. A and B are quite clever, I'll probably leave them in. C and D, I'll need to do something about... C is pretty close to the intended solution though.

Genius 3: First solution uses glitches so I'm not overly worried about it. Second solution is clever enough that I'm happy to leave it in.

Genius 7: Another case of that you have all the same main tricks, but a different execution. Regardless, it's a valid solution, and great work on the 97%.

Genius 20: Your second solution (the "glitchless" one) is clever enough that I can definitely leave that in there. I'd like to get rid of the first one, but I don't think there's any way to do so without also blocking the intended solution... :/ I'll have to think about what to do here.


Good luck with Genius 19. I personally feel it's in a class of its own among the LPII levels for difficulty; only Genius 8 comes close IMO.

[Akseli]

Sneaky 12 hasn't changed, not sure why you included a new replay. =P

Oh yeah, again this that I recognize levels better from their titles than from their rating numbers, sorry! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> I got confused because I read from your list:

The levels to be fixed are, as well as the ones that are complete:
...
Sneaky 13 - "From The Lemmings' Mouth" (backroutes, FIXED)

Fortunately I included the replay for "When Only A Lemming Will Do" also, I remembered that I hadn't solved that one correctly.


Genius 3: I consider steel digging a glitch also (my second solution), so I wonder what's the intended solution, I might check it some time. :b


Anyway, here's my solution for Genius 19. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[namida]

That's not the intended solution, but I'm happy to accept that one. Nice work on the 92%.

EDIT: I thought of a way to block that solution on Genius 20 without blocking the intended one... but it blocks *both* of your solutions. Oh well...


So it appears, the levels that need to be updated are (so far):

Sneaky 18 - "A Two-Pronged Approach"
Sneaky 21 - "O RLY?"
Cunning 10 - "Shotgun Run"
Genius 20 - "Cactus Central"

Sneaky 21 I found the backroute myself, I don't think anyone's even worked out how to get to Sneaky 21 (or Cunning 21) yet...

Also, I decided to knock up the difficulty a bit on Sneaky 21 and swap it with Genius 21. Since only one person's found Genius 21 and no one's found Sneaky 21 yet, this should be barely noticable. =P


EDIT: Update uploaded, replays are also updated to the latest version. Additionally, I've released the replays for Sneaky, and the secret level replays for Cheeky.

[namida]

Genius 17: No Construction Zone – A nicely designed level, I had a lot of fun with this, although this felt easier than "To The End!", could be just also that I was less experienced back then.

I've been thinking about this, and while the experience probably helps a lot, the levels, while sharing the same concept (a would-be long workerish level that requires 100% and gives no builders), the design of them is very different. Psycho 28 generally involves avoiding obstacles along a fairly clear-cut path to the exit, and finding ways to substitute places where you'd otherwise need builders and/or unfreeable blockers. On the other hand, Genius 17 is more a matter of creating that path when there isn't such a clear approach, and less emphasis on avoiding specific obstacles along the way. For example, Psycho 28 has tricky places to turn around, one way walls, traps and several lethal falls. Genius 17 on the other hand just has no clear path as such because every feasible approach seems, at first glance, to be blocked off to a player with no builders in their inventory (indeed, the solution involves going under the exit, almost all the way to the other side of the level, then coming back up and across the top). These two very different outcomes from the same basic concept really just shows how versatile Lemmings is. o_O

I very much doubt Genius 17 has no skills you can't live without, though, unlike Psycho 28 which is the *only* such level in Psycho (and one of only two in Danger and Psycho combined) - or, for that matter, a solution that only uses two types of skills (if you didn't already know, Psycho 28 can be completed using only bashers and diggers). There again - Genius 17 had a fairly elegant solution in mind from the start, whereas Psycho 28's original solution was in fact very messy, then some far more elegant approaches were discovered later.

[namida]

I've uploaded another update, this one does not have any changes to the levels but rather changes the player. Specifically, cheat codes have now been enabled. The code to activate them is "NGGYUNGLYD" (never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down...). LookForLVLFiles has *NOT* been enabled.

Just so you know:
- There is no confirmation message when entering NGGYUNGLYD to activate cheats. HOWEVER, you won't get an incorrect code message either - it simply won't give any response at all (however, it will silently activate the cheat mode).
- As usual, you can also just enable it in the INI file.
- The code enables both direct entering codes (eg: NICE15) and pressing 5 to skip levels.
- Deactivating the code appears to only be possible in the INI file.


Note that at the present time (and I may very well leave it this way), cheat codes can only be used to access the normal levels - if you try and access the secret levels (by entering Nice21, Cheeky21, etc), it will say invalid code. You can only access them either through the levels they're hidden in as normal, or by entering the *proper* code for the secret level in question.

[namida]

Added the replays for Cunning (excluding accessing and solving the secret level), and added the accessing and solving secret level replays for Sneaky. I'll probably wait a bit longer to release the Genius ones (and Cunning secrets) than I did with the others, due to Genius being the final rank and Cunning's secret level being by FAR the most well-hidden (and the level itself can be worked out without a replay, the challenge is purely in execution - and believe me, it is FREAKING HARD - it, along with Genius 19, are the only levels in LPII that, even knowing the solution and having access to frame-perfect control in Lemmix, I find hard to beat).

[Akseli]

My v3 solutions so far. Cunning secret level is the only level I haven't even seen yet. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> (And I haven't found the Sneaky secret either.)


To The End!/No Construction Zone: Yea and I found turning around with only terrain removal skills in Psycho 28 much harder than what Genius 17 offered.

These two very different outcomes from the same basic concept really just shows how versatile Lemmings is. o_O

That's why I'll never get enough of this game. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[namida]

Sneaky's secret became a lot harder to access in V2, before this it was only slightly harder than Nice's or Cheeky's. Cunning's is unchanged though, however, it's always been very hard from the start. (Genius's was also intended to be hard to access, but there's a backroute to accessing it and I don't really think secrets are important enough to fix, unless something makes them inaccessible.) The other 4 secrets have not been affected by version changes (not saying none of their levels have been modified (not saying they have either), but if they have been, it hasn't impacted how to access the secret). This increase in difficutly wasn't actually an intentional V2 change as such, but rather a side effect of fixing backroutes on the level - in fact, further modifications after the backroute fix had to be made to make the secret accessible again. (It's still in the same place, it's just that getting to that place is a lot harder.)

I imagine people are going to want my head on a platter when they see the Cunning secret level... xD

Obviously, the Sneaky secret is in a level that was updated in V2. As for Cunning, I won't say exactly what level, but I'll narrow down the possibilities for you...

It's in a level that's possible to acheive 100% on. It may or may not require 100%.

I think a big part of what made Psycho 28 so challenging at first is that, when the level was released, the kind of turning around it required was a new idea. Even for those who had played the Cheapo version in LP3, while you *can* use the original trick near the end, there's a different way to do it that works much better, which couldn't be done in Cheapo due to the differences in the last section of the level, as well as other minor differences - some due to different design, some simply due to different mechanics.



I'll check your replays soon; I'm especially keen to see how you did Genius 21, since this is the first solution I'm seeing for it (I already eliminated one backroute that I discovered myself, but that was prior to it being moved to Genius; and the original solution from while it was in Sneaky has also been blocked off now).

[namida]

Sneaky 18 - Still not my intended solution. However, I did say a maximum of two backroute fix updates per level, so I guess it sticks. Besides, it's still a pretty clever solution, at least.

Cunning 10 - This one's also a backroute. >_> Damnit!

Genius 20 - This one isn't what I intended either, but I'm happy to leave it in. I should've known placing that cactus exactly where I did would cause problems, though, especially since the intended solution involves a similar trick but elsewhere. >_> xD

Genius 21 - Also a backroute. At least this level can still be fixed up, though (although I'm only allowing one more update to the levels full stop; after the next levels update, the levels are finalised - and thus, most likely, LPII as a whole will be finalised too).



Another hint for those of you hunting the secret levels - this is a general hint, not specifically for any one level:

There are no secret levels hidden in any Psychedelic or Purple levels. (This is even though those sets DO have the secret level trigger objects - as you've probably realised the released copies of the style doesn't have the secret triggers, only the version compiled into LPII does; I figured it made sense to do this firstly to hide them a bit better at first, and secondly because the secret area triggers won't work outside of the LPII player anyway, unlike the one-way fields which in fact work perfectly fine in the original game too.)

On this note though, Cunning's secret level was *originally* hidden in a Psychedelic level (specifically, Cunning 7 "Left-Tuned Lemming" - it was on the block that juts out to the left of the play area a bit), but I later found a much better place to hide it in another level.

For those who are specifically hunting the Cunning one:

I cannot stress enough that you will NEED to apply your knowledge of the finer points of the game's mechanics. Just general Lemmings mechanics, there's nothing LPII-specific at work here; it's completely possible to get to that point in CustLemm too. Not that I'd want to try in CustLemm, because it requires multiple pixel-precise moves.

[namida]

Replays for Genius are up, excluding the secret level and the access to the secret level.
Cunning replays have been updated to now include the two secret-related replays.


Also, uploaded a new update to LPII itself. This update will be the final update; there will be no further changes to LPII from now on. This update brings the levels up to V4 and the player up to V3. See the main post for more info.

So, final versions are:
Levels: V4
Styles: V1
Player: V3
Overall, 5th release.