[Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!

[Crane]

I am sad that I couldn't properly patch Mastermind.  I will do eventually, but I feel that it may not find a place in the pack, even if it is made backroute free and still nice and difficult!  I have been using the latest version of SuperLemmini, especially after stumbling upon that Miner glitch in Overflow.

Other things I've noticed so far:

- Trapdoors where lemmings exit to the left will have to be double-checked, as sometimes they can get jammed in the hidden terrain (e.g. Vignette).
- "Impasse" has a bug that also exists in Lemmini, although it isn't game-breaking.  The Lemmings don't actually get roasted in the fire traps; instead, they fall straight past them to the bottom of the screen.

With "Eye of the needle", I prefer the older version that doesn't have a steel plate at the end of the walkway, since I remember spending an age trying to get perfect bomber placement, but always failing and then finally realising it was a red herring!  Is it entirely necessary, or is there some other backroute that I'm not aware of and the plate is required to patch it?

P.S. I'm playing it mostly for myself, just to see if I can pass it now!

[mobius]

I am sad that I couldn't properly patch Mastermind.  I will do eventually, but I feel that it may not find a place in the pack, even if it is made backroute free and still nice and difficult!  I have been using the latest version of SuperLemmini, especially after stumbling upon that Miner glitch in Overflow.

Other things I've noticed so far:

- Trapdoors where lemmings exit to the left will have to be double-checked, as sometimes they can get jammed in the hidden terrain (e.g. Vignette).
- "Impasse" has a bug that also exists in Lemmini, although it isn't game-breaking.  The Lemmings don't actually get roasted in the fire traps; instead, they fall straight past them to the bottom of the screen.

With "Eye of the needle", I prefer the older version that doesn't have a steel plate at the end of the walkway, since I remember spending an age trying to get perfect bomber placement, but always failing and then finally realising it was a red herring!  Is it entirely necessary, or is there some other backroute that I'm not aware of and the plate is required to patch it?

P.S. I'm playing it mostly for myself, just to see if I can pass it now!

Moving the fire on Impasse would probably make it look ugly so I don't think I do anything about it.
As for eye of the needle; I'm not sure I understand you but the intended solution does indeed involve some tricky bomber placement (however, it should not be too tricky as there are two different ways to do it.) I think the version in that pack might be old with 10 climbers? If so, that's a mistake.
It doesn't matter because this level is being removed, with all of mine.

[Crane]

You could possibly extend the terrain slightly on Impasse so it overlaps the housing of the flame pits, but not the flames themselves.  They shouldn't be visible, especially if the fire is not set to "no overwrite".

As for "eye of the needle":

I was under the impression that the solution involves sending up three climbers, turning the first one into a builder at the very end of the walkway, turning the second lemming into a blocker to force the builder to turn around while still building, and the third lemming to bomb the start of the ladder so when the builder finishes, he falls down to the lower platform whilst facing left (using the Floater to slow his fall).  That upper walkway originally didn't have a steel plate at the end, so I was trying all sorts of tricks in trying to get the perfect bomber placement to act as a step down (akin to Crazy 3), but the splat distance was always too high.

Shame it's getting removed though.

[mobius]

You could possibly extend the terrain slightly on Impasse so it overlaps the housing of the flame pits, but not the flames themselves.  They shouldn't be visible, especially if the fire is not set to "no overwrite".

As for "eye of the needle":

I was under the impression that the solution involves sending up three climbers, turning the first one into a builder at the very end of the walkway, turning the second lemming into a blocker to force the builder to turn around while still building, and the third lemming to bomb the start of the ladder so when the builder finishes, he falls down to the lower platform whilst facing left (using the Floater to slow his fall).  That upper walkway originally didn't have a steel plate at the end, so I was trying all sorts of tricks in trying to get the perfect bomber placement to act as a step down (akin to Crazy 3), but the splat distance was always too high.

Shame it's getting removed though.

oh, actually that's making the solution a little more complicated than it really is.

You don't need to turn the builder.  You can either have the second or third be the bomber and the builder does the blocking. There is one other slightly different way that saves one climber but I don't remember it.]

The last part you mentioned is a backroute though, that shouldn't be possible.

That's a good idea on Impasse

[Crane]

Another level that doesn't work properly on SuperLemmini: "Wish you had them"

The lemmings get stuck at the top of the level trying to cross those diagonal braces.  The terrain either needs lowering slightly or this level needs a parameter set so Lemmings can walk higher than 6 pixels from the top of the screen or whatever the limit is.

The easier version, "Hunting Season", should automatically pick up the changes if you're using the version that utilises the "mainLevel" parameter.

And yes, using the "Crazy 3" step-down on "Eye of the needle" should not be possible.  The distance between the two platforms is way too great.  At least I couldn't make it work (before the steel plate was put in).  I can imagine one Climber-saving solution would be sending up the second climber so he approaches the builder when he's a couple of steps from finishing, making him a walking bomber, and then blocking him just before he explodes so he turns the builder and also destroys the bridge just as he finishes up.

[Crane]

- The exit on "Asian Holiday" doesn't work at ground level, but you normally have spare builders that allow you to reach it.

- Bunker Hill looks absolutely horrible aesthetically in SuperLemmini.

- I'd recommend putting Clonic Inferno back to its original 1 minute, which would justify its placement and really give another level of difficulty.  I've attached a replay showing its solution with some leeway.

- I'm not sure what the intended solution of Unidentified Lemming Object is, but when asked to save 52%, I managed the full 100%.  I posted two similar solutions - the second one is a bit trickier to pull off, but is theoretically possible under Lemmini rules.

- I've found a minor backroute in Lemming Cathodes, which can be fixed simply by increasing the number of lemmings from 50 to 70.  It's impossible at 100, and at 80 it requires a bit too much precision to be fair.  Still, 70 is a nice number that's different to the norm.  See what you think with the attachment below.

[Crane]

Some other replays showing leftover skills or saving more lemmings than required in levels that would suggest otherwise, but some of these are less backroute and more luck in terms of timing (or just skill!).

(NOTE: Sorry for the double post, but I had to get around the attachment limit)

[mobius]

I've fixed the issue in Wish you had them. Btw, not sure if I'm going to use the main level feature. It seems not that big of time or work saver. Some of the repeats may require minor graphic changes anyway

I don't see any difference in Bunker Hill compared to Lemmini http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" /> [compared to Lemmix/DOS, yes]  I was thinking of removing this level anyway--I never really liked the solution all that much although it was mildly interesting. Hubbart had some levels of amazing design quality but most of the time the solutions were weird, too precise or backrouted.

I had already planned on putting Clonic Inferno back to its original 1 minute. The reason it was changed was Lemmini's clock was so strict it wasn't solvable before.

I'll have to watch these others, Altitude Training is intended to have multiple solutions--it was part of Clam05 and none of those [except two of them] were supposed to be real difficult

Think Again; I've changed some things. (thanks to Icho Tol0t) For one thing, it was possible to ignore the bottom portion altogether and go over the top; I've removed that route [hopefully]

On Bat Counry; haven't you been following the other thread? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I've tried to repair backroutes but ultimately I wasn't really able to and will going with an easier(ish) version anyway.

@Crane; another important thing; I'll double check but I think I have the correct version of Faithful friends, [it has the added terrain cut-outs] but the chamelon doesn't work. I just nudged it a few pixels to work properly.

[Crane]

I can double-check Faithful Friends while I help select the level music when the time comes.

Some more notes:

- Good Reception: The zapper traps don't work.  Climbers just climb past them harmlessly.

- Vegetation Reign: You may need a 10th builder or remove some of the terrain around the exit.  Unless my solution is wrong, turning a lemming into a blocker to 'reflect' the builder is just too unfairly precise in SuperLemmini, and even if you pull it off, other lemmings can't actually walk up the rest of the bridge because they turn around too soon.

[t3tesla]

Hey,

Some more backroutes or curious things.

• On Carnage 27 - Watch Ye Step!  There is a backroute: I can save a digger. But I don't know if you think this solution use an irregular trick.
  In the video, I use the digger because I didn't realise a builder was enough to deal with the turn around. And by the way, the traps effect area looks curious here (lemmini issue?). http://youtu.be/d0M6imbajCg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/d0M6imbajCg
• On Carnage 29 - Wayfaerer, bashing just above the rock trap makes a great and easy path. http://youtu.be/3cKcwYDzPjs" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/3cKcwYDzPjs
• On Carnage 30 - Pipe dream , I found a messy solution. Backroute? http://youtu.be/4KgopU5v34Y" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://youtu.be/4KgopU5v34Y. Then I checked IchoTol0t playlist and discover the clean solution http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

thanks for all the help guys  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

-Good Reception; Gronkling requested this level be removed.

-Vegetation Reign; shoot; I was afraid of this when I discovered this problem on another level. That is the intended solution you found Crane and I guess it'll need a change. I don't think it'll end up impacting the level too greatly in the end. I don't want a ton of precision heavy levels anyway.

-Watch Ye Step; I'm removing that level because it has too many backroutes.

-Wayfarer, I think I can fix that pretty easily. Getting it to look good will be the tough part...

-Pipe Dream; that's not so messy imo, but I don't think it will work in SuperLemmini anyway so that's good.

a random question to everyone: on my own copy of SuperLemmini I replaced the boing exit sound with the yippee. Would anyone be interested in me uploading that change with the levelpack?

[Crane]

I can't seem to complete Herculems either - I can't get the miner low enough so, when he bombs, the other lemmings can walk into his tunnel.  Either the bomber is too high and they don't step into the tunnel at all, or they do enter the bomber's excavation but can't step into the miner's tunnel beyond.

(To clarify, I use a bomber as far right as I can go, then start mining from the bottom of the pit thats made, then bomb when the miner breaches the other side)

You might need to put a small step or something to give the lemmings a boost up.

[t3tesla]

Two more backroutes.
I watch IchoTol0t solution, and see, sadly, that I'm not right http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cry.gif" alt=":'(" title="Cry" class="smiley" />

On Getting Stuck in a Cave, the backroute is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46DFWsH8fJg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46DFWsH8fJg
I see on Gronkling's youtube channel  there is an older version of the level, where the steel is moved a little on the left : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6JCYFyfL4" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf6JCYFyfL4. In this older version, my solution don't work. But I prefer the current version of the level, because the trick with the steel creates possibilities of thinking in a wrong way.
To prevent this backroute, I suggest removing a slight piece of ground where my miner works. Thus, the mining is faster (so the miner reaches to early the exit : the basher has not yet finish his job). See attachment (red=ground to remove), it's just a suggestion.

On Utopia a blocker can be saved : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qej_XsOoCo" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qej_XsOoCo.
I learnt that a digger can free a blocker when seeing the intended solution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2ZOGly5Ug" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aW2ZOGly5Ug )... I'm not sure I understand how that trick work.

[mobius]

thanks again for the replays  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> I'll watch them when I get the time (soon)

@t3tesla; you might want to PM Pieuw with that replay of Utopia and Gronkling with Getting Stuck in a Cave

@Crane: I might remove Herculems from the pack. I've had complaints of the annoying bomber timing, of course I've also heard complaints for Endless Steps but I find that really easy compared to Herculems.

I'll get to fixing these if necessary this weekend

thanks to namida and others old posts from previous forums are available to read and I found an old custom level topic which has already proven to be very helpful in answering some questions about old levels in this pack. I've been reading this.

[Crane]

For me on Herculems, it was only the last bomber that was problematic, which I think can be fixed with a step near the start.  It was otherwise a pretty nice puzzle level, since the route wasn't that obvious.