[Lemmini/Lemmix] Revenge of the Lemmings!

[Crane]

Thank you Proxima.  I try to avoid repeating tunes too close together, but there were a couple of places where I broke those rules.  p7 I think only appears three times actually.

[Proxima]

Reached the end of Pain, though with mixed success on the last few.

26: Nice clean solution, though it's pretty hard to find, so I think the level was well placed.
27: Exit doesn't work, and is it meant to be up in the air? I have a solution that works if it's on the ground....
28: Seen this before in Lix.
29: So far, I only have a solution that fails because of time. I don't know whether this would work in the Lemmini version?
30: Naaaaasty, though once I buckled down to it, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Great choice for the final level of the set.

[mobius]

Reached the end of Pain, though with mixed success on the last few.

26: Nice clean solution, though it's pretty hard to find, so I think the level was well placed.
27: Exit doesn't work, and is it meant to be up in the air? I have a solution that works if it's on the ground....
28: Seen this before in Lix.
29: So far, I only have a solution that fails because of time. I don't know whether this would work in the Lemmini version?
30: Naaaaasty, though once I buckled down to it, it wasn't as bad as I was expecting. Great choice for the final level of the set.

26: this one actually has more than 1 solution. I found what could possibly be a backroute and it occurs to me know I never told geoo about it http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> but it wasn't real bad and still hard to find.

27: lol, no the exit shouldn't be up in the air. I'm confused because when I open the level in cust-Lem the exit doesn't hover and it even works (the trigger area is in an acceptable place)

28: one of my favorites for being so unique.

29: I'd guess you're doing it wrong. The solution is tight on time but time is stricter in Lemmini so you should have a little more time in DOS. This may have alternate solutions or backroutes.

30: Why exactly is it nasty? I forget what you said in chat. Also; I agree if you know the trick this can seem daunting but I think it's one of the simplest/most forgiving of this style (and one of the first, being created by MZurliden in 1999! (if memory serves)) [alright I know I keep repeating this...]

[Akseli]

Pain 26: About to Break - I solved this level similarly than Proxima.
Pain 27: Balancing Act - The exit object is out of the "ceiling" boundary (has a negative y-coordinate like Armageddon 1, for example), it disappears in Lemmix, but what does it work in CustLemm?? This level uses a trick that doesn't work in Lemmix, but works in Lemmini and Lix, so the intended solution should be impossible in Lemmix player. I'd like to see your solution for this, Proxima. :0
Pain 29: Four Lemmings And A Funeral - My solution has over 10 spare seconds. Proxima's solution is even more impossible in Lemmini than in Lemmix, time limits in Lemmini seem to be more strict in general.
Pain 30: Mastermined - This certain level is created in 2002 (http://www.abc64.de/lemmings/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.abc64.de/lemmings/), but to be honest I don't know any older level packs than this one. This is the level that taught me this trick, and I remember literally banging my head to a table when I realized what's going on here. Last time when I played this level I had major troubles, I think this is harder in Lemmini than in Lemmix.

Crane:
Armageddon 18: Feel the Pressure - I didn't get your replay to work, lemmings die when they fall to the lower platform. This level has the wrong version in the initial Lemmini version release, that I couldn't solve in any way.
Armageddon 29: Duality - Awesome solution, a lot cleaner than mine, and definitely valid, works in the original Lemmix version too.

[Crane]

Strange that Armageddon 18 doesn't work - hmmm... unless it was fixed in a later release.  I'm glad you like Armageddon 29's solution.  I'm curious to see yours too.

[Proxima]

I just realised that my solution to Pain 27 doesn't work anyway because of the time limit  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cry.gif" alt=":'(" title="Cry" class="smiley" />  but here it is. Still no luck on 29.

As for 30, getting down was the easy part; the fiddly part is releasing the blockers afterwards (and yes, I say this even though I released them all and saved 100% when this wasn't required). Bashing on a miner's slope is tricky because they often stop after one stroke. (This part is much easier in Lix... though sadly the level is impossible in Lix because the lemmings can't walk under the bottom flamethrower.)

[Proxima]

Okay, here's the solution to Pain 29. Nice. Another one that's simple but hard to spot -- I love the idea that levels like this form the end of one rating, while the start of the next rating moves up a notch in terms of conceptual complexity.

That said, I'm not very happy with the start of Carnage. Level 1 is visually stunning, but on the leftmost large wall, it seems to be impossible to bash between the one-way portion and the steel, where it looks like it should be possible. Here's a replay that goes only up to that point so you can see what I mean. (This problem can be avoided by going over the wall and direct-dropping into the exit, but you know how I feel about glitch solutions.)

Level 2 is mostly straightforward with a nice touch of hidden complexity in timing the last bridge. I've left the replay out due to the 4-per-post limit; let me know if that sounds like it's not the intended solution.

Is this intended for Level 3? Seems a bit too simple....

On Level 4, I'm not sure whether the exit was meant to be just off the ground, but it's solvable anyway. I'm not very happy that the level requires the steel-bashing glitch -- though at least, considering the skill availability, even if you didn't know about this glitch it's pretty obvious that there's no other way to get them out of the cells.

[Akseli]

Crane:
You could try to save a replay for Armageddon 18 via "Load level" with the second version of the pack, if you like to. :b I attached this post my solution for Duality, your solution is much more elegant! Load Duality via "Load level", not "Select level", so my replay will work as it should.

Proxima:
Pain 27: Balancing Act - Nice, if you place one skill just a little bit earlier, then there's a working solution for the original level in Lemmini, and that's imo a new one, Gronkling you should probably look this one out. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> It won't work in Lemmix though, because climbers climb through low ceilings unlike in Lemmini.
Pain 29: Four Lemmings And A Funeral - Now this is exactly the same solution than I had.
Carnage 1: Dungeons & Lemmings - Steel areas are messed up. : ( This level should be possible still via bashing the oww from left to the right, so direct drop or such isn't needed.
Carnage 2: Wing It - Sounds just like the solution I found. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Nothing bizarre here.
Carnage 3: the last mohilem - Another easy level (or at least it feels like it after the late Pain rating), but I didn't know about that solution, that is a nice one, too. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> My solution:

The builder is assigned with a well-timed bomber, and it blows a hole to the wall so high, that the climber lemming can mine down to the exit safely.

Carnage 4: Please Save Us! - Steel areas are messed up again, I tested this one with the original level file, and you should be able to bash only so that there remains one pixel wide floor beneath the cells, not that the floor breaks. :I

[namida]

If you're wanting to use a fixed version of a level, you don't need to use the Lemmix editor. Just turn on LookForLVLFiles in the INI then place the level file in the folder named to match. I forget which name corresponds to which number in RotL, but if we were using the original game as an example, to replace Mayhem 20 you'd name it 0420.lvl

That being said, I'm working on a much-improved version of Lemmix (for general existance - my aims with this are a bit different to EricLang's; his seems to be extending the formats and games supported by Lemmix, whereas mine is on keeping as close as possible to the traditional Lemmings experience but without the DOS limitations and glitches), which I'll then build a more finalised version of this pack based on. So far I've got pixel-perfect trigger areas and object/steel positions, and I'm part-way through making indestructible steel (so far I've done the groundwork and fixed bombers, still have to do the other destructive skills), I've also fixed the sliding glitch.
I'm basing this updated player off the LPII code, simply because I saw no reason not to (it'll allow the use of LPII gimmicks with the released player that way - if no one ever uses them, oh well, no harm in them being there, though I'm sure we'll at least see a few interesting Karoshi gimmick levels). Though I can easily revert the bombers to the traditional ones, and apart from that (and a few other glitch fixes, which are just a start to what the whole aim is here), all the new features in LPII are extras that if someone doesn't want to use, they can simply not use.
And there's no intention at this stage to use this improved Lemmix as a base for an LPIII, though I'm not ruling out the possibility of it ever happening. Though I might make a custom engine if I decide to make a new Lemmings Plus...

Here's a shot of a slightly modified LPII level, with this indestructible steel in effect; the first one also shows pixel-perfect placement of objects and steel areas. It shows it for bombers, miners and diggers - still got to iron out some glitches with the bashers.

[Martin Z]

I found that Pain 30 ("Mastermined") seems impossible in the Lemmix version due to the misplaced steel areas. I tried the original level file and it worked perfectly. So I guess it would be a good idea for future Lemmix versions to simply use my original level files (in general). Thanks btw for including so many of my levels!

Another thing I noticed is that some Lemmings will likely fall to death in Pain 16 ("The Pool") when you build to the uppermost platform on the left side of the pool. This also occurs with the original level file and it's not intended but rather annoying. Could it be that in Lemmix, the maximum survivable falling height is a few pixels smaller than in the original games?

[ccexplore]

Another thing I noticed is that some Lemmings will likely fall to death in Pain 16 ("The Pool") when you build to the uppermost platform on the left side of the pool. This also occurs with the original level file and it's not intended but rather annoying. Could it be that in Lemmix, the maximum survivable falling height is a few pixels smaller than in the original games?

Actually it is Customized Lemmings ("CustLemm") that have the higher maximum fall distance (by 3 pixels) than the original games.  The higher distance is "wrong" in the sense that some original levels like "We All Fall Down" or the initial fall in "Steel Works" are adversedly affected by turning fatal falls safe.  It is unfortunate that a version of DOS Lemmings exists with a different fall distance and Customized Lemmings just happened to have been based on that version, as it means levels created in the LemEdit/CustLemm era may inadvertently rely on the "wrong" fall distance.

Lemmix's game engine has support for CustLemm game mechanics including the higher fall distance, but I don't think the LemmixPlayer used for Revenge of the Lemmings is currently configured to use that mechanics.

[namida]

No, the beta player released here was, like the LPII one, based off OhNo mechanics.

[Crane]

The higher fall distance might explain why The Final Countdown doesn't work the way it is intended to in the Lemmix version... the level was designed in CustLemm.  Curiously, it works fine in Lemmini.

[Proxima]

Martin Z: Mastermined is possible (and even 100%able) in the Lemmix version; see my replay further up this page!

Here's some more Carnage  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

1: A "clean" solution (no direct drop and avoided the one-way-wall problem I mentioned previously). I bashed against the misplaced steel to turn one lemming, but this could be done against the correctly placed steel and the same solution would work.
4: We talked about this on IRC and I realised that there is a solution that doesn't depend on being able to bash so that the floor breaks. That said, the visible steel is three pixels below the floor, so the solution still depends on glitchy behaviour.
5: I solved this level in Lix, but it's not possible in Lemmix as the misplaced steel prevents working on the pillar on the left side of the exit platform.
6: Strange level but maybe intended solution?
7: Seen this in Lix but never solved it until now  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />  I think this pack, with its excellent difficulty curve, is helping to improve my skills... I was stuck on The Pool for a long time and that was almost a whole rating ago. Now I'm making decent progress on much harder levels.
8: Haven't solved yet (in the modified version with no blocker). Exit doesn't work.
9: Saw this in the contest, also didn't solve it until now  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />  Replay doesn't work due to misplaced steel, but the solution should work. This is a really, really, really gorgeous level! I must remake it in Lix....
10: Fairly straightforward, doesn't really feel like a Carnage level.

[Crane]

I'm glad you like Prize Catch's appearance so much.  You can sort of tell which of my levels are old and which are new, as my more recent designs I try to make as beautiful as possible, whereas the old ones were more spartan and functional.  Your solution is actually a backroute that has already been patched in the latest version (the first release accidentally used an old version of Prize Catch)... the latest version has steel plates all along the top under the trapdoor, so it's impossible to dig out the blocker.