[PC][RPG] Legends of an Otherworld

[Nepster]

Comments to ccexplore - Heavy spoilers - Do not read until you saw a Spellbinder

I do want to point out that in most RPGs, there is usually a savepoint right before a boss battle, to the effect that you can often tell you're about to have a boss encounter just by presence of the savepoint.  I don't remember if namida's game is like that or not.  I can also imagine some (admittedly rare) setups where escaping can create some unwanted side effects:  1) sequences of bosses where the game intentionally do not want to allow you to heal between one boss and the next; 2) bosses which you are expected to use certain rare items as part of the intended strategy, so fleeing then restarting becomes a problem since you no longer have the items.

namida has placed save points regularly, but not before every boss fight.
Good points regarding the unwanted side effects. Fortunately they are (up to the point where I am now) not really relevant for namida's RPG: There is always time to heal between boss battles. And up to now I have only found two bosses where usage of rare items is expected:
a) Transient: Here you should have 5 Softening Sands, given to you by the front door guardsman. This would have to change into being able to restock on Softening Sands (up to a maximum of 5) by talking to the guardsman (or something similar).
b) Undead boss during flashback scene: Here you have one Regen item and are expected to use it in this battle. This is quite a bit harder to fix, but then you get the Regen item quite a bit earlier, so there is a (low) chance that one used it already.
And maybe there is a third such battle:
c) Strategy test before becoming Guardians: I suspect that one should use the Sneaky Powder in this battle, but I tried that and always failed. Then I used some completely different strategy. So I have actually no clue what the intended strategy here would be.

Short answer: Isn't it enough that the items are useful?  I'm not opposed to having a stronger convention where monetary values are always proportional to the item's usefulness to the player, but at the same time, I'm generally fine with items being primarily only beneficial in either ability or monetary but not both, especially items that are only obtained through steals and drops from random encounters.  I will concede that items that can be bought in a shop should probably stick consistently to a formula (based on the bought price) when it comes to resale value.  For other items, one can argue that you have no expectations of resale monetary value since for whatever reasons, it's not generally being sold in the world to begin with.  Maybe it's bad luck in your game's universe to try to sell certain types of items.

I would just like some more consistency. For example being not able to sell any of the Blue Magic learning items is fine (but they shouldn't clutter the inventory menu). What I don't like are cases where one expects to be able to sell something, because one already has sold some similar (possibly weaker) items, but then discovers that one doesn't get even that much money:
- Hand Granade (damages one monster) sells for around 150 gold (I don't remember exactly), but Vampire Fang (which simply adds the draining ability to it) sells for 1 gold.
- Phoenix Dust (revive party at 1 HP) sells for 500 gold, but Phoenix Wing (revive party at full HP) sells for 1 gold.
- Hyper Potion (restores HP) sells for 1250 gold, but Elixir (restore both HP and MP) sells for 1 gold.
- Reduce Enounters (halves amount of random fights) sells for something around 3000 gold (if I remember correctly), but No Encounters (completely eliminates random encounters) is worth only 1 gold.
(Sorry that my first examples a few posts above were chosen badly.)

And regarding whether it isn't enough that some items are useful: What items exactly are useful depends to some degree on the general playing style. Proxima is constantly buying Liquer (Plus), which I am selling. On the other hand I am buying status inflicting items, which Proxima seems to ignore completely.

[ccexplore]

Spoiler tag not really needed:  would it be enough if the sellback price is the same as for the "regular" item you are comparing with in your list?  Or do you still prefer a higher sellback price?

This is assuming that the "regular" item is also readily available (perhaps more so) from steals/drops as well, so that there is no particular advantage for the "nonregular" item to have same sellback price as the regular one, since you could always grind for the regular item instead for same amount of money.

I should also confess that it doesn't seem to be my playing style in general to grind for money, except for special cases like playing a low-level game.  That could well explain why I seem generally less bothered by item resale values.  But I guess it depends on the game as well, I could easily see a game where money is harder to come by or items tend to be more expensive than the player can afford without extra grinding.

[Nepster]

Would it be enough if the sellback price is the same as for the "regular" item you are comparing with in your list?  Or do you still prefer a higher sellback price?

Yes, already geting the same amount as for the "regular" item would be nice.

I should also confess that it doesn't seem to be my playing style in general to grind for money, except for special cases like playing a low-level game.  That could well explain why I seem generally less bothered by item resale values.

I am not grinding for money either, especially as I am usually pretty rich already and don't need the additional money. Still it somhow rubs my sense of fairness...

[namida]

Money is not the easiest to come by in the early parts of this game.

Mechanics spoilers - Different people may have different judgements about how serious this one is; it would be very minor to anyone who's far enough in the game to encounter Cave Obbie and /or Spellbinder, but could still be slightly spoilery until the end of the game

When you get to around Corgent, money becomes much easier to get thanks to steal abuse. Also, not many new items with higher costs tend to appear beyond this point, so money also becomes less nessecary.

[namida]

As I've mentioned in chat, I'm going to release an update that rebalances the difficulty in a few parts (such as the road to Trivia). This will also include a few bugfixes - in particular the reorder-on-escape bug, the glitchiness of Blessing, and a crash during one of the storyline bosses under certian conditions.

This update won't deliberately include new content, but it is possible that newer content exists in the source code than is in the latest release. If this is the case, that content will be included in the update.

I'm hoping to get this update done by Friday at the absolute latest (preferably sooner).

[Proxima]

If you're going to be doing an update... in my latest video, I give a few suggestions for improving one of the battles I found extremely annoying:

Spoiler

Yuki + Sasha

Also, as I've mentioned in chat, I hope you will reconsider your idea of having the Sensor ability automatically on. Yes, it's extremely helpful for a few bosses (like DT) that heavily depend on anticipating the boss's next move; but most of the time it's ugly screen clutter. At the very least, maybe instead of an ability it could be a setting that the player could turn on or off at any time?

[namida]

At the very least, maybe instead of an ability it could be a setting that the player could turn on or off at any time?

I could look into this. However, don't you think that, especially in a turn-based game where many factors can influence turn timing (Agility stat, buffs / debuffs, Haste / Slow, and even which attack you use can affect how quickly your next turn comes - the turn order gauge adjusts for this when you hover over any attack, too), it's quite important to have turn order visible?

[Nepster]

This will also include a few bugfixes - in particular the reorder-on-escape bug, [...]

I don't know what others prefer, but I would like to return to the order at the beginning of the battle in any case, even without fleeing the battle. In other words: Any switching done during the battle should not have an impact on the order after the battle. Only explicit formation changes in the character menu should have an impact.
I am aware that my suggestion is probably another piece on non-standard RPG-mechanics, so don't hesitate to tell me why this is suggestion is idiotic.

[Proxima]

I could look into this. However, don't you think that, especially in a turn-based game where many factors can influence turn timing (Agility stat, buffs / debuffs, Haste / Slow, and even which attack you use can affect how quickly your next turn comes - the turn order gauge adjusts for this when you hover over any attack, too), it's quite important to have turn order visible?

Strange question -- you can see from my video series that I don't consider it important. I put Sensor on for two battles (Returner and DT) and never used it apart from that. (And I wouldn't have needed it for Returner if I'd understood how the fight works; I didn't bother with it for DR.) Sensor is absolutely essential for DT, in which the boss's move sequence is entirely fixed, and the battle hinges on knowing what's coming next and fully preparing for it -- which requires actions from all party members and knowing when to switch them. In most fights, though, knowing when the boss will act doesn't tell you what it will do; so most gameplay consists of either reacting to the boss's last move, or deciding that your current strength is sufficient and you can afford to get in some attacks.

It could just be a matter of different players having different styles of gameplay, which goes back to my suggestion of making it an option so that we're both happy.

I don't know what others prefer, but I would like to return to the order at the beginning of the battle in any case, even without fleeing the battle. In other words: Any switching done during the battle should not have an impact on the order after the battle. Only explicit formation changes in the character menu should have an impact.
I am aware that my suggestion is probably another piece on non-standard RPG-mechanics, so don't hesitate to tell me why this is suggestion is idiotic.

That's an interesting point. Because of how the EXP/AP system works, I constantly need to switch in battle, and then revert to my usual front four. For random encounters, I just leave the party as-is and switch in battle to save time, but for bosses I need to switch before the battle starts. Either way, it would be a convenience to keep the front four fixed as you suggest. But other players might prefer it not to work this way and might get confused if they switch during battle and expect the switched actor to remain active.

Alternatively, consider changing the EXP/AP mechanics. Constantly switching the party members gets rather tiresome. (Though I admit, the fact that you have to choose only four to receive AP does make for some interesting choices.) Another refinement would be to allow knocked-out members to receive EXP. I know this is a traditional FF mechanic, but, as Simon would say, just because it's traditional doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

[namida]

Switching characters in-battle is a mechanic I haven't seen in many games. I can maybe think of three - Final Fantasy X, Pokemon and Jade Cocoon. How it affects levelling is different between all three, so I'm not sure if any standard rule really exists. Instead, I should make sure this game's mechanic is clearly explained - and definitely that there isn't an NPC who outright lies about it*.

* Technically, what the NPC in question says WAS true in early builds

[namida]

Regarding returning to original order after any battle - this should be doable. I will have to check whether it causes issues with one specific boss battle though (if you've fought the one I'm thinking of, you can probably guess that it's the one).

EDIT: It appears that "return to original order after battle no matter what" is already in the source code.

[namida]

Rebalance update is ready.

First, I dropped the "Curse of Saria" subtitle from the game's name. It doesn't fit that well with how the storyline evolved as I was making it.

I don't think any new content is available compared to the current build - although a bit exists in the code, it's quite buggy and only partly complete so I decided to block access to it for now.

Most strongly affected areas are the path to Yuvia, and the Eastern Ranges. There's a few small tweaks elsewhere. Notably, also, the Sensor ability has been removed; turn order is now always visible. AP costs have also been altered, most of the changes being reductions (you'll get an AP boost when you load an old save to compensate for that you may have already learnt skills at a higher price). Some MP / BP costs have been tweaked too. Three moves have had significant alterations: Use no longer has any MP cost; Stand Ground now only lasts until the character's next turn but also counters magical attacks (the first half of this is actually what it was intended to do; it lasting indefinitely was a glitch); and Outrage has been removed altogether and replaced with a new skill, "Gamble".

Also, Blessing should no longer be glitchy.

Fresh download: Download via DropBox
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[Nepster]

Here is some more feedback and bug reports. Note that I was still using the old version to play these parts.

Until the underground city

The First Weapon:
Very nice dungeon layout. My main problem was that I had sound (and music) disabled, so I didn't hear the different sounds on the red crystals. Luckily there is a plaque mentioning the importance of sound, which finally made me turning the sound on. The random encounters were managable with level 35. Only the Sand Mantis still proved to be difficult.
FIRST WEAPON: At the end of this dungeon I was level 37. Fortunately the boss uses lots of Thrash attacks, which inflict Zombie and reduce the HP to 1. But that was fine, because I concentrated on reviving my fallen party members, so the boss would have fared better if it would have defended instead. Still it wasn't an easy fight, especially given the impressive 200,000HP.

Ice Caves Revisited:
CRAIG & BRIANNA (Zombie edition): This even with level 38 this is still a HUGE roadblock. First of all I stocked up on Phoenix Dusts, because there seems to be no other way to survive Craig's attackes. Then Amanda got Omniproof and magic boosts to continuously cast the group Light spell. Alicia got the Auto-Reflect, Light Touch and HP+100% to attack by hand, whenever not using Breaker Bombs. That's because Harley's Dispel proved too slow for all the Haste casts. Lenna got drain abilities for all four basic elements, to stay alive and use Phoenix Dust and finally there was Ivy who basically got the function to divert some of Craig's attacks.
This setup worked relatively well, until Craig got down and Brianna started to cast Flare and Desaster. Even with Aura, this killed my party members instantly almost every time. Only the Auto-Reflect proved to be a relatively good shield against them. So I stopped reviving my dead party members and just hoped that all this nasty stuff got reflected to Brianna until she went down, too.
WRIATH: Relatively easy boss once you cast Regen on it and/or slow it. Nice posession mechanics. At first I tried to induce Sleep on the posessed character, then tried to take of the Zombie status. Neither worked...

Hunting Ground Revisited:
I came here just to check whether a new optional boss is available, and it was:
ELECTRO GUY: From the description in the hunting club, I expected a fire elemental and equippen accordingly. So I lost a few turns changing equipment. Fortunately the boss wasn't really that strong and could easily be handled by my 40-level party.

Water Cave:
Excellent dungeon layout - very confusing! The random enemies are very nice. The most annoying is the Karmeleon with it's hiding ability. Aquarion and the Qrab are fortunately vulnerable to sleep, so one can pick them on one-by-one and with Amanda's Thunderia and Osmosis, one doesn't even have to waken them. I love the Aquarats as encounters, because they are vulnerable to sleep, too. So they are easy food and have the Potion-Jug as a steal.
If you made these random monsters easiers, then perhaps add some low resistance to sleep and slow to them?
WATER ELEMENTAL: I had enough protection against water damage, that this boss did no damage at all during the whole fight. So this was a bit boring...
METALITHE: The first part with two pods was rather nasty and the Trauma attack (on group 2) took my by surprise. But after I equipped a HP+100% to Ivy, who then survived Trauma and could easily heal the party with blessing, the rest was rather easy. After all pods were down, I expected some nastier water spells, but with all my water resistance items still on, this last part was almost trivial. By that time, I was around level 41, btw.

Hunting Ground Revisited:
FIELD TRANSIENT: I still hate these Trauma attacks. Three of my party members were constantly trying to keep everyone alive and reasonable healthy, while only Amanda did damage. Nice challenge.
OCTOPWN: Far too easy! With eight arms I expected it to be a lot faster or have more hits.

Sysona:
Very interesting town layout I would prefer several big areas instead of tons of small parts, though. There are some very interesting should there. And a dark dealer, but I wonder how on earth you expect someone to get 3,000,000 gold? Unfortunately a bug prevented me to progress.

Worldmap:
Given the bug with Mia (see below), I tried to find and tackle the worldmap monsters, mentioned when we got the boat.
SUZUKA: Very interesting steal, but far too difficult for my current party. I survive only about 4 rounds at the moment. Will come back to it at some later point.
LEVIATHAN: Interesting encounter, but not really that difficult for my level 40 party: The rather weak water attacks and only physical attacks that target one member for less than half their HP can be withstood quite easily. I should note that I already tried it with a level 35 party (before the First Waepon), but got beaten then.

Bug reports - Spoilers

• Ivy's BP getting reset on switching to another party in the Metalithe boss fight.
• After the Metalithe battle, the command "COMMAND" to swich parties is still present for some party members (but not for all!).
• Lena leaves the party with any comment - every time you board the ship at the water cave, even when she did so already once and there was no mention of her joining again. In fact she is still in the party, despite the animation!
• When battling Sand Mantis, Alicia gets a Ghost status. At first I thought this was due to her Auto-Shield, but then it appeared in Proxima's video, too.
• When you talk to Mia in her private rooms, she repeats "I'm sorry." endlessly. And you cannot excape her...
• After defeating Leviathan, the party icon displays Tara, not the boat.

[namida]

Bug report feedback; same spoilers as above

Ivy's BP getting reset on switching to another party in the Metalithe boss fight.

I noticed this recently. Will fix.

After the Metalithe battle, the command "COMMAND" to swich parties is still present for some party members (but not for all!).

I'm guessing this relates to the party switching - I'm guessing (without looking at the code) it happens for either (a) everyone who wasn't in the party that ended the battle; (b) everyone who meets condition A *and* participated in the battle at some point; or (c) everyone who never entered the battle. Will investigate.

Lena leaves the party with any comment - every time you board the ship at the water cave, even when she did so already once and there was no mention of her joining again. In fact she is still in the party, despite the animation!

Not quite sure what you mean there. From a quick look at the code, I don't see any reason why a bug could occur - maybe it was fixed in the rebalance (via being fixed in the source code ages ago but never released). Nonetheless, I'll take a closer look.

When battling Sand Mantis, Alicia gets a Ghost status. At first I thought this was due to her Auto-Shield, but then it appeared in Proxima's video, too.

I saw that in Proxima's video too. Ghost is a very obscure status effect so I had to actually look through them to find which one had that icon. I did notice some useless code in the Sand Mantis's AI, but it shouldn't have had this effect; with that being said, I did notice a similar oddity in another battle* that had some slightly incorrectly-written code, so I've removed that useless code. I'll have to take a closer look at that battle sometime, though.

* Spoilers for which battle - this is an optional battle that neither you nor Proxima have found

Second, optional, battle against Aisha. In existing versions (including V018), you can fight a rematch against her at any time after finishing the Eastern Ranges, up until the end of the currently released content. There is a bug in this battle where characters stats may randomly become permanently maxed.

When you talk to Mia in her private rooms, she repeats "I'm sorry." endlessly. And you cannot excape her...

Yep, this bug is why Sysona is blocked off in V018. I've got all remaining made-but-not-released content in a releasable state now, but I'm going to add one more dungeon before releasing because it's so close to the previous update otherwise.

After defeating Leviathan, the party icon displays Tara, not the boat.

Will look into this.


By the way, saves made in Sysona will not load correctly on V018. But if you keep them around, they'll load fine on the next update.

[namida]

As per Proxima's request, I added an option to show or hide the turn order meter. It's even (or rather, only) possible to change the setting in-battle.