Cheapo Level List Game

[ccexplore]

Oh hey, didn't know your levels got onto this thread.

Actually a bad time for me.  I spent most of last weekend dealing with hard disk problems on my laptop.  And then there's the fact that in the U.S., tax returns are due 4/15 which is soon.

But I'll take a look when I have a chance.

[chaos_defrost]

Level 4: Lemming Dilemma
Save 10/10, RR 1, 1 minute
1 bomber, 1 blocker, 5 builders, 5 diggers

Good: A very nice level with a dual solution -- I like the concept of both exits being accessable with two uniquely separate solutions for the level -- it adds a challenge. Nice terrain, also, although this can be said for a lot of your levels. The timer forces you to be efficient with your tasks.
Bad: Misleading hint. I find the right side both easier to figure out and easier to execute, personally.

I can't review until someone does #5.

I was actually very impressed with this pack, in general -- it's one of the few that fuses excellent aesthetic terrain with challenging puzzles. ("Why Bother?" stands out as another pack like this.) I mean, take my levels for example -- good puzzles, but I think there's something to be desired appearance-wise for a lot of them.

[ccexplore]

I had a brief look at them.  Didn't bother solving any yet (and some I've already seen before anyway), but I did have a listen at them all.  Another reminder to finish the finishing touches on the MIDIs......

By the way, in that ZBB level, is that your girlfriend who's near the exit (center of level)?  Or is she from a different group of people?

And yes, very impressive work on the styles I must say.

[Proxima]

Thank you, Steve!    Being compared to "Why Bother?" is a great honour even if it is in a "this set tries to do the same kind of thing but won't ever be nearly as good" kind of way.

I am pleased with these levels compared with my earlier attempts; it took me a lot of practice before I could learn to make hard puzzles that weren't riddled with backroutes! (Most of my levels still have backroutes when I first build them, of course, but I think I've got better at finding them and working out how to deal with them. Yeah, I know Lemming Dilemma was one I fluffed badly, but if ccexplore didn't find it, how could you expect me to?)

As for level 5, you can review two in a row if it becomes necessary to keep the thread going, but I don't think we're there yet, so let's wait and see if ccexplore or someone else would like to give it a go.

(I'm just curious to see if anyone's found the 100% solution on level 5 yet. That is, I think, one of my hardest puzzles so far.)

[Proxima]

I had a brief look at them.  Didn't bother solving any yet (and some I've already seen before anyway), but I did have a listen at them all.  Another reminder to finish the finishing touches on the MIDIs......

Please please please  ;D  But I accept that your tax return is a little more urgent.

By the way, in that ZBB level, is that your girlfriend who's near the exit (center of level)?  Or is she from a different group of people?

Ctrl-H is how you use the hint feature. (And ctrl-N to show the second hint if there's more than one, and ctrl-S to make it go away again after you've read it.) The girl in the centre is Ruby, also a very good friend.

Incidentally, Jayelinda is coming to visit in just 12 days now! I'm getting ever so excited.

[ccexplore]

Yeah, I know Lemming Dilemma was one I fluffed badly, but if ccexplore didn't find it, how could you expect me to?)

Still haven't played any of your levels, but does the backroute perchance use a trick with diggers? &#A0;I think for that level I might've not told you about one of the backroutes back then due to tricks I thought hadn't been used by anyone (though if it's now, I wouldn't mind since I've already seen the trick in mind in other people's levels).

And of course I will miss a few every now and then.

[Proxima]

Doesn't use any sort of trick. What's the trick you have in mind?

And I know you like to be secretive about your tricks, but honestly, if you find a backroute you should tell me -- at least tell me that there is one! What's the point in me showing you my levels at all if I can't trust you to do that?

[ccexplore]

Doesn't use any sort of trick. What's the trick you have in mind?

It was a variation of a route I did tell you about. &#A0;It's been too long so I don't remember exactly, but the digger trick was having someone in the crowd (who's milling about in a digger's pit with the digger still digging down) dig to "bash" thru the thin column of pixels that is holding the crowd in the pit. &#A0;At least that's what I remember. &#A0;The only different between using this trick and the variation without this trick is maybe you gained a slightly amount of time, though I'm not even sure about that at this point.

but honestly, if you find a backroute you should tell me -- at least tell me that there is one!

Don't worry, it's extremely rare that I withheld solutions, even rarer that it should matter because there tends to be other similar yet disclosable solutions in most cases.

And the consequence is no worse than the case of me actually missing a backroute (which now sounds like what this case is, apparently). &#A0;Since it's almost impossible for me to prove with 100% certainty that a level has no backroutes, it's unclear what you'd gain if I tell you there's a backroute without saying anything else about it.

It rarely happens anyway--and if the backroute is more obvious there'd be no need for me to be secretive about it. &#A0;And in some cases I might be able to find a somewhat similar backroute that doesn't use the trick, and so eliminating that route should also rid the one I didn't tell you about (which I believed was the case here).

What's the point in me showing you my levels at all if I can't trust you to do that?

Sorry. &#A0;Still, you can trust me that I won't purposely embarass you by withholding obvious backroutes. &#A0;So wow, sounds like this must be a really awful backroute that we both missed?......

Besides, unless you show every version of the level before public release (and I doubt I'd have time for that sort of frequency), there's always the chance that one of later version you didn't show me has a new backroute that I couldn't possibly know about beforehand.

[ccexplore]

Ok, I replayed that level.  I'm sure now the undisclosed route I was thinking about with the digger trick is already eliminated when you eliminated a route I did disclose back then.

I did find one right-hand-exit solution that I don't remember finding back then.  However, it's basically just using the left-hand trick on the right side, so I won't even consider it a backroute actually.  (It uses all builders + 3 diggers in my case.)  What Insane Steve did is either the same or more difficult than what I did, so it really shouldn't matter much.

[namida]

What was the point of saying "Don't bash her" if you have no bashers anyway?

[ccexplore]

Level 5: Repton 3: Prelude
Save 36/40, RR 90, 3:30
1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 4 blockers, 6 builders, 5 bashers

Good: Demonstrates that special graphics levels don't have to be straightforward to solve. &#A0;Good set of skills.

Bad: &#A0;Not much. &#A0;Not knowing where the teleports lead to means you have to play a few times just to observe them. &#A0;And apparently lemmings can skip teleports (kinda like your non-constant traps), which means it takes a while for the lemmings to exit (fortunately there's plenty time).

P.S.: &#A0;only 37/40 so far (on my first successful run) for me, it'd definitely take more work to get to 40/40.

[edit: 39/40 now, but 40/40 would probably require something different]
[edit 2: a completely different 39/40 that's still unsuitable for 40/40]
[edit 3: achieved 40/40.  Turned out I do have enough bashers, I thought I needed one more when I planned the route out.]

[Proxima]

I did find one right-hand-exit solution that I don't remember finding back then.  However, it's basically just using the left-hand trick on the right side, so I won't even consider it a backroute actually.  (It uses all builders + 3 diggers in my case.)  What Insane Steve did is either the same or more difficult than what I did, so it really shouldn't matter much.

I think I've found it. Leader digs down the edge, builds when far enough down, digs when above air, builds to exit, while the second lemming traps the crowd in a shallow dig pit and builds them out at the end; right? If so, you're right that Insane Steve's solution is very similar but marginally more difficult. But it's still -- especially your version -- a lot easier to think of and execute than the left-exit solution, as well as using fewer skills (since the left solution requires turning one lemming with a separate dig/build) -- and since the right exit is meant to be much harder -- indeed, until you found your beautiful solution I was quite happy to leave it impossible -- I don't see how you can't consider that a backroute, and a very damaging one at that.

EDIT: please do tell me your "Prelude" solutions! You're only the second person to solve it and tell me they've solved it, and the first was a backroute that I've already eliminated.

[Proxima]

What was the point of saying "Don't bash her" if you have no bashers anyway?

It's called "humour".  

[geoo]

I just worked out another solution for getting into the right exit for Lemming Dilemma; it uses a glitch though:
Increase the RR when the second lemming is out, and have the first dig nearby the edge that there's a 1px wide pillar of terrain left to the right. Have at some point a lemming build to the right that he gets through the pillar, stop him making him digger after having set three steps. Have him build to the exit.
Release the other lemmings making on of them walking to the left dig that the other digger is released. Have him build to the wall to turn around. All lemmings should get in right in time.

As for prelude, I had alsmost got it when four lemmings walked past one of the teleporters thus causing me  to get only 32 instead of 36 in. In my solutions I went down at the left.

[Proxima]

As for prelude, I had alsmost got it when four lemmings walked past one of the teleporters thus causing me  to get only 32 instead of 36 in. In my solutions I went down at the left.

Nice.    I always approve of other people checking the unorthodox and roundabout routes just in case I've left in a way that shouldn't work. I try to check them myself, of course, but I find I'm not very good at thinking of everything!