Lemmings Community Compilation Levelpack

[mobius]

no, that won't be necessary, we can implement the Gronkling entrance apparatus  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />
[a small piece of steel that turns the lemming as soon as they leave the entrance. Can't be broken in Lemmini]

okay, here is the updated list with at least some of the levels that got missing there again. Ignore the levels highlighted in brown for now, those are levels I wanted to look at again, or levels I don't personally know the solutions to. Levels colored gold have issues like backroutes.
Also uploaded it as a document.

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I personally don't mind if there are duplicates in rating titles; but I guess I would prefer original titles so I'll try to come up with more original ones.

some more (added to the previous list):
Pain
Jaunty
Synergy
asinine
Trance
whimsey
Safari
Indiscipline
Rickrack
revenge
Odium
hobnob (yeah, I know some of these don't make any sense at all. I got these words out of an interior decoration book)
Hootenanny*
Brouhaha*
Balderdash
Ballyhoo*
degradation
conflagration
Zany
Frenzy*
Confounding
Painless
Picnic*
Casual
Killer
Dire
beastly*
heinous
flap-doodle*
formidable
Carnage*
Vicious
Oh no!
AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGG!!!*
End of the world
Calk Walk*

[Proxima]

Hmm. Geoo seems to prefer adjectives, and you seem to prefer nouns. How about we see if we can find six nouns that go well together as a series?

Picnic
Whimsy
Pain
Odium
Frenzy
Carnage

That works for me http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

Some of those I should've have posted in the first place, i.e. I don't like Odium really, don't know why I suggested that. But anyway here are my suggestions: I'm okay with adjectives and nouns together, as long is it sound good and fun.

Picnic
Hootenanny/Jaunty
Flap-Doodle/Rick-Rack
Frenzy
Pain/ARRRRRGG/Brouhaha/Vicious
Carnage/Calk Walk (sarcastic) /ARRRRRGG/Pain
Bonus will be called Bonus

-----updated list-----
if you want to vote, just make a new column next to the ones already there and mark your initial and tell us either keep or eliminate. I also have a word version but for some reason it didn't copy correctly and I can't figure out how to get it right.

if you want to vote, create a new column with your name on it, then mark either KEEP OR ELIMINATE in a level or K or E.

[Proxima]

True, "Odium" is no good as it suggests the levels aren't fun to play. (Whereas "Pain" sounds more like it means painful-in-a-good-way  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> )

I hate to be a spoilsport, but I don't like the silly names at all. None of them really suggest a particular level of difficulty.

[mobius]

I understand your reasoning of 'they should be descriptive'. However, I would argue that I think it kind of goes without saying that each level is more difficult than the last so that kind of detail is unnecessary to me.
I can't image most people liking the game if the difficulty is all over the place, and/or like ONML difficulty curve, fortunate I don't think this pack will end up like that. First of all it starts out harder then original lemmings, and there are a good amount of 'lesson levels' to put through the first and second rating (like It's a long long way to fall by Proxima)

I originally would've liked for this to be a game for people new to Lemmings to play, but let's face it; not a large number of people will play this pack, especially those totally new to Lemmings. Secondly we do not have a good assortment of very easy levels to choose from. So I'm satisfied with it being a level pack in a difficulty range after ONML. Beginning somewhere in Tricky and Ending somewhere way beyond ONML  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

When it's finished, I would of course recommend that everyone here try it out, either version. Most or all of the levels (including ones by people you may not be familiar with like JHIsan) are really amazing and fun to play! (as well as beautifully designed)  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

*********
note: If you download the latest list and if you want to vote, create a new column with your name on it, then mark either KEEP OR ELIMINATE in a level or K or E.

edit: I just thought of my favorite title for the last rating: Armageddon. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />

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some levels which are missing from the list:
The small Jail! by DragonsLover
In the Swamp... by DragonsLover
One Hot Minute by Ellischant

[mobius]

I'm in the process of saving the files and ordering the levels in the list. You can still vote or nominate if you want however.

Discrepancies/issues/questions:

I'm getting really annoyed at the Lemmix limitations (like arrows being broken; not working for miners one way (still wondering why the Lemmini haters like it so much better)) causing good levels like Dodochacalo's Law of the Jungle to be disqualified.
I intend to make a full scale game with ratings in the Lemmini version. I would like to do the same for Lemmix/DOS Lemmix player but;
1. Have no idea how, need help.
2. Doubting whether a good enough number of people are really interested in that, to bother doing it.


Gronkling; Good Reception—I really liked this level, and it is not difficult to execute. We don't have a level like this one in the pack yet. Why don't you like it?

geoo; Stroke At Retirement Age---while the solution is really neat and tough it's just far too difficult to execute imo. Even after a few changes I made in both Lemmix and Lemmini it's still extremely hard. So I'm probably removing it unless someone else is willing to fix it up (I would much appreciate it)

Clam: Floodgates Open, the glitch used is not critical to the level theme imo, so with your permission I'd like to make some small changes to fix this. Something also has to be done because climbers don't climb out of the small holes but I think it can be easily fixed with not mucho of a noticeable change.

Ellischant if you're reading this; could you respond to my questions some times soon?
Is Life as a Worm compatible, and is Conveyor Bolt spelled correctly?

I'm easily ready to remove any of my own levels, if a better level would replace it.
If you have any suggestions for fixing my levels/making them look better to easier to execute please let me know. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> Some of them currently need fixing.

For the record once the pack is done and released, I am still willing to fix problems of course.

[geoo]

As for the Lemmix version, didn't you say Akseli was working on it? Either way, I suppose a Lemmix version needs a little less work on level solvability checking as most levels were made for Lemmix.

I might have a look at some of the levels in the list and give my input. You're aiming for 180 levels in total, right? Would be convenient to these levels in a batch somewhere, but I think I at least have most of the Lemmix ones.

You can scrap 'Stroke at Retirement Age' if you find it too hard to pull off (and undoubtably, it'll be harder in Lemmini than Lemmix due to the lack of savestates). Admittedly, even once you know all the tricks that make execution easier, you'll still need a couple of tries to pull it off. I'll try my best at making it easier to execute for the Lix remake, but some ideas just seem to be impossible to be implemented easily.

Miners not working in one direction is a pretty annoying issue (can you salvage the level by mirroring it?), but it's not the physics of Lemmix I prefer over Lemmini, both have severe flaws in this regard. It's the controls. Lemmix immediately responds to my will (usually via a keypress). In Lemmini however e.g. I have to nuke, wait, and click away a screen to restart a level (and you have to watch out that you don't do 'Restart Level' from the menu, as this doesn't allow Action Replay for no good reason); fast forward is so slow that restart + action replay is not a good substitute for savestates which Lemmini lacks, and also in general too slow, and a few other little things that are subtle but annoying. This whole waiting is really frustrating when you're used to something better that responds immediately to your will. I prefer keyboard driven controls over mouse driven for the same reason.

As for rating names, I'm not a fan of the overly silly names either.
Something like Frenzy, Carnage and Armageddon on the other hand seem really fitting, and fit together all being nouns.

[mobius]

I could mirror Dodo's level but I already have to mirror two other levels (Lem Ramp Scam and Vignette), it's taking a lot of time, but yes, I will consider it. Plus, Dodochacalo isn't around to ask about it.

maybe putting little markers of twigs or green moss in Stroke at Retirement Age will help?

Would be convenient to these levels in a batch somewhere, but I think I at least have most of the Lemmix ones.

what exactly do you mean by this? I am currently in the process of sorting all the levels into folders by author. I'm about half way done, I think.

another update, with some of the missing levels added. I wanted to try to keep voting anonymous (however unsuccessful) So if you want it anonymous just PM your votes.

[Akseli]

I'm getting really annoyed at the Lemmix limitations (like arrows being broken; not working for miners one way

Yep, like we all know, mining oneway-wall to the right is probably the most incomprehensible authentic Lemmings game mechanic alongside steel glitches, but please stay calm möbius. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> I can say that we have more Lemmix levels dropping to the Lemmix Bonus rating because they don't work in Lemmini (blockers don't turn fallers and bashers, diggers on air can't build etc.etc.etc.!) than Lemmini levels, which aren't making it to the standard ratings.

(still wondering why the Lemmini haters like it so much better)

That what geoo said. Also, at first we all have likely got used to authentic, original Lemmings game mechanics. I can imagine how someone playing Lemmini for the first time is confused with different blocker behaviour, builder's turnaround trigger areas etc.

Lemmings games today have all these luxurious features, including savestates and such, and if one's used to them, then it's of course hard to get along without them. Anybody remember playing Lemmings in DOS without any extra tools, loving those games fanatically? http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I played not much over a year ago still CustLemm, and it was utterly cool. (Without EVEN fast forward or replay!) When I tried Lemmini, I felt so coddled with these two new features. Now I've played with Lemmix's quick restart, savestates etc. and I think I can't go back in CustLemm anymore. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I don't even know if I'd play Lemmings in their authentic environment, in DOSBox for example, because I've got used to these new features. Lemmings playing has become more efficient, decreasing factors that consume time (like executing same things again inside a lemmings level), because we have utility such as replaying. So, it's just how everyone's used to play.
Still, there are lots of people who still play mainly without FF or replaying, like our YouTube guy roundthewheel. And of course I totally understand those who like to play with these helpful features, mostly because they save time. A lot.
I personally love both Lemmix and Lemmini for the reasons stated http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=6.msg15196#msg15196" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">here. So I think I'm pretty lenient in this case also. The only game engine I don't like is WinLem, it really doesn't have any strengths compared to the other engines, on the contrary it's hard to handle and crashes a lot.

(and you have to watch out that you don't do 'Restart Level' from the menu, as this doesn't allow Action Replay for no good reason);

Btw, this is an issue which has confused me in an opposite way. For me, if I want to restart a level, I definitely don't want any replaying there to mess things up. This was an issue in Cheapo and Lix, when I first time restarted levels in those games, I was a bit annoyed and tried for a couple of minutes just to find a way to get rid of the replay mode. :b Imo it's most natural if there's "restart level" and "replay level" separately, I hadn't earlier even thought that they mean the same thing? That was a surprise for me.

I intend to make a full scale game with ratings in the Lemmini version. I would like to do the same for Lemmix/DOS Lemmix player but;
1. Have no idea how, need help.
2. Doubting whether a good enough number of people are really interested in that, to bother doing it.

I've played some bigger levelpacks (for Lemmings95) in namida's LemmixPlayer, because it supports both L1 and ONML graphics. The ini.file needs this change: LookForLVLfiles=1 Then the lvl-files labeled 0101, 0102 etc. behave as a full scale game. But namida's LemmixPlayer has its own rating names, and there are only 5 ratings for 30 levels, so the compilation pack won't fit there. :I No idea if anyone else has done anything like this.


Executing solutions is also an interesting issue. These aforementioned helpful features in Lemmings games are nowadays making execution more and more trivial. Having savestates and such causes that making mistakes aren't fatal to the solution, and we might even get less concentrated on the tricky parts of the levels, because nothing bad can happen. Executing, like time limits and such, is also a part of the whole Lemmings game experience imo, and I totally agree with Proxima's opinion about http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=600.msg12870#msg12870" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">this case here.

It's of course nice that we try to make levels as nice as possible to execute, and we as experienced Lemmings players likely think that the actual puzzles are probably the main thing in Lemmings. I'm fully comfortable with it. But the interesting part is, how pleasant to execute we are trying to get 180 levels? Can't there be a one single level which is annoying to pull of and if there is, how badly it destroys the whole playing experience?

Related to this issue, my opinion about tseug's "Oh No! Not Again":

I found it fun möbius that you voted for this level and seem to get annoyed because of execution of many easier levels. ;D In my opinion, all about this level is finding a ridiculous pixel perfect solution hidden in that terrain. It doesn't use tricks, it doesn't have a puzzle. I don't say it's a bad level, but I just were so amused about this execution thing, so I had to say this, but I wouldn't vote for it to the pack. Still, I somehow understand why some people might have some kind of a respect to this level, probably because it really seems impossible before you solve it.

All in all, my personal opinion: The more unique/beautiful/etc. a method/trick/solution is, the more I forgive its tricky execution.


About the rating names, I also don't like the silly ones. Like I said, I don't even know the meaning of most of those, and I'd think that others who aren't native English speakers, would prefer names which are even somewhat familiar.

[Crane]

Wow, I need to pay more attention!  Is there still time to suggest contributions?  Is this pack designed to work on vanilla Lemmings, Lemmix, or Lemmini?

[mobius]

yes, you can suggest contributions if you'd like. And also, if you select any of your own levels, could you also upload your own solutions with them, to make it easier for us to test.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

It's designed for both Lemmix and Lemmini. I'd prefer levels that work in either and don't use glitches or really odd behavior.

[Crane]

In that case I can't use JAILBREAK because it only works with Lemmini (different bomber behaviour when used on climbers, as well as the shape of the hole) and Iron Curtain may need modification because the trigger area on the brick's stomper trap behaves differently (you can build over it in Lemmix and vanilla Lemmings, but the trap will still trigger in Lemmini).  Will post them soon, as I need to fix a backroute in Faithful Friends.

As far as I know, none of my recent levels use glitches.  There have been times where I've taken advantage of a Basher's partial stroke and mining against one-way arrows, but I won't suggest any of those.

Here are video replays of my two 2-minute levels (played in Lemmini) - I'll get proper replays later!

Build it up with iron and steel: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwfSly1XwKU" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwfSly1XwKU
Faithful Friends: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXYB32_oAk" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkXYB32_oAk

EDIT: Wrong link on Faithful Friends!

[mobius]

thank you. Faithful friends among others have already been nominated. I think Build it up with iron and steel will be a good addition too. Tier Drops could be considered but last I checked it still has a backroute.

Oh, and one more thing: would you consider altering your Level "Lemming Cathodes" slightly to make it good for a digger tutorial? As of know we have no digger tutorial level. Although, as this level is I don't think is too awfully hard as an early level, but it could be a little easier.

[Crane]

Heh, Lemming Cathodes, eh?  I think that was probably only the second or third level I had ever designed!  I'll see what I can do though, definitely.  In the meantime, here are "Faithful Friends" and "Build it up with iron and steel".  "Faithful Friends" has had a little bit of scenery changed to eliminate a backroute... I'm not sure if there's another, although I did address one I found independently.

The backroute in Tier Drops was caused by an exploit regarding blockers cancelling out steel areas and one-way walls... nevertheless, I have addressed it by making the steel floor very thin in the area in question.

I'm having some doubts on my "Iron Curtain" level, because while I like its design, I feel that it may be a bit too heavy on walking bombers, even though you have quite a bit of leeway because they only blow up against walls, and they are climbers too.  Still, we'll see... stand by.

Recommended Music for Lemmini:

Faithful Friends: Tim1
Build it up with iron and steel: Tim9 (London Bridge... the name of the level is actually a verse from that song!)

[Crane]

A couple of easier levels for the pack (approximately Taxing).  Floater's Round was one of my very early levels, and is meant to be an interesting case where the pathfinder has to go to a different exit to the rest of the pack.  The Final Countdown is mostly a novelty with the release rate and the tools available (they read 08 07 06 05 04 03 02 01 with a release rate of 09).

Hmmm... it seems I like 2 minutes as a time limit!  All four of these levels have 2 minutes on the clock.

Recommended Music for Lemmini:

Floater's Round: Mountain
The Final Countdown: Tim10 (Forest Green)