Level design contest #1!

[Pooty]

I've now decided on how I'm going to fix my backroute problem. Here you go.

Edit: Akseli and geoo have now solved this level in a way that I'm happy with.

Edit 2: That said, in the spirit of the backroute fixing jam, and because I seem to be a horrible person, I'm going to attempt to force the correct solution. lyygak scores a v1 backroute, geoo and Akseli score a v2 backroute.

[Akseli]

This "design as hard level as possible" theme is turning out to be similar than "design a level which is solved by 4 people for example", because of the challenge of creating a backrouteless level, and many good players. So, I think, in both cases many people will solve lots of levels, perhaps, and now I find this scoring system appropriate (as I at first maybe thought that I would have liked to see contest levels with moderate difficulties). Now it seems that due to backroutes many people will get full points although this contest was about creating hard levels, but that shouldn't matter too much. So, I think this type of scoring for the main category was the correct choice, and I find this very fun still! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

This is why I didn't participate in this. 1. It takes me forever to come up with a hard level. 2. There's bound to be backroutes and fixing them is annoying. (Which is already happening, which is funny http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)

That said, I definitely find that there is room for different kind of levels by difficulty also. I guess it would appeal a wider audience, if all levels won't be very hard. And I think the affect to the success of the author who makes an easy level for the contest is very little. I'd encourage everyone to join this kind of contest although one doesn't like to create hard levels. In my opinion, the difficulty really doesn't matter! The more of variety of different levels, authors, difficulties, everything, the better.

I've really been thinking what I want to do with my level! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> At first I thought that I like to see everyone's solution for my level, and I didn't mind backroutes. Proxima found an awesome solution which I like, geoo's one were against the idea of my level and Pooty backrouted it in the same way I did after I submitted my level. I haven't got Clam's replay to work yet. So, I'd say that geoo and Pooty have backrouted my level so far, but I'm happy to see that there aren't fatal backroutes at all! And I really would appreciate the feedback related to my level from you, because I haven't done levels before. Anyway, I guess I'm still going to upload a second version after a while. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Marble tileset is quite unsurprisingly the most used tileset in this contest with 3 levels. Then there are 2 brick levels, one dirt and one rock level. I give respect for Gronkling and geoo for picking these less used tilesets, which both are known of bumpy terrain. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> I was expecting that someone would have made a crystal level (probably the favourite tileset of the community) for the contest, but no at this time. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> I went for brick just because I wanted to make my first ever serious Lemmings level with my clear favourite tileset.

Gronkling hasn't visited in a while, I'm curious of the possible backroute fixes for that level.
Also, I noticed that there are now two topics titled exactly "Level design contest!", hopefully that won't confuse anyone. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

[chaos_defrost]

Alright, geoo has the intended solution. Akseli and ccexplore sent variants of the same route which isn't intended. I would call it close enough, but Akseli managed to do it without the climber and floater, and it'll be a cold day in hell before I leave a 6-skill solution in on a 1-of-each skill level I make.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Not sure when a v5 is coming because this new route overlaps with the intended route a fair bit.

[chaos_defrost]

Kind of a dumb fix but I don't know maybe this works. Seems like the intended route isn't bounded by time in the same manner the backroute is so I think this works but knowing me it'll open up another route

[mobius]

is it too late for a submission? I wouldn't worry about not being fair because there's not enough time to solve it-my levels are rarely that hard.

Competing with these levels is savagely hard. All of those look really well done guys.  Nobody was fooling around  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

I'll try solving levels but I doubt I'll be able to solve most of them (particularly geoo's or Clam's ) period, let alone on time...

[Gronkling]

Just away there unexepectedly and my level got completely backrouted (Of course). XuX
I'll try to fix it tomorrow and start solving levels.

[chaos_defrost]

I think it's still alright to enter, möbius. I'll have a look this weekend.

Akseli modified the v4 route to barely work in v5. It requires an extra skill and some fairly impressive juggling (and really isn't far off from the intended route) so I see no reason to make a change. Nicely done.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

as expected I solved nothing except one level on my first try. (well I also solved IS's but most likely the back route)

[unnecessary rage]
playing got me really frustrated and I miss the directional select of Lemmini. and really wish bashers were always able to bash into a damned miner's tunnel!!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> ]

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Proxima already backrouted my level, I figured this was going to happen because I rushed the design. anyway here is a improved version. that didn't take long...

[geoo]

Möbius: I added your level (first version) to the contest level list, and the level pack that is attached there. I recommend everyone to re-download the level pack.
Your submission counts as late submission though, so you will lose one point in each category.

This is why I didn't participate in this. 1. It takes me forever to come up with a hard level. 2. There's bound to be backroutes and fixing them is annoying. (Which is already happening, which is funny http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)

Yeah, like Akseli said, you don't have to make a super hard level. Having some variety is nice, and you can still score in the other two categories.

I've really been thinking what I want to do with my level! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> At first I thought that I like to see everyone's solution for my level, and I didn't mind backroutes. Proxima found an awesome solution which I like, geoo's one were against the idea of my level and Pooty backrouted it in the same way I did after I submitted my level. I haven't got Clam's replay to work yet. So, I'd say that geoo and Pooty have backrouted my level so far, but I'm happy to see that there aren't fatal backroutes at all! And I really would appreciate the feedback related to my level from you, because I haven't done levels before. Anyway, I guess I'm still going to upload a second version after a while. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

When I first saw your level, it looked to me like one that has probably a bunch of possible solutions, but when I tried, it wasn't easy to come up with one. I just brute-forced my way through the level with that glitch, and I hadn't looked for alternative solutions yet because I thought you'd fix this. I just had another glance now, and I found a solution that only uses 4 skills (see PM).
It's definitely a nice level to try out different things, while not having any easy solution that stands out. I'm just curious which design process you used when making this level (if it doesn't give anything away about the level); I like building a level around a certain trick, others prefer starting with some terrain without a specific solution in mind, then trying to find solutions themselves and the refine things. I suspect the latter have the tendency to be a bit more backroute-prone, as the designer essentially has to do the work of a solver as well. Is your level made like this? The design looks really clean!
What is the issue you're having with Clam's replay btw?

I don't usually like bumpy terrain (especially if I have to solve a level), but bumpy terrain is nice to hide features of the level in, and I might have succeeded, considering no-one has solved version 2 of my level yet as far as I know. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Among the styles with bumpy terrain, rock is definitely my favourite.

And I renamed the other topic now to avoid confusion.

[mobius]

some of my solutions feel possibly backroutish, but then everybody's levels these days are like that. Plus I think that's naturally going to happen with a 1 of each skill things like this. Or any challenge requiring you to follow a pre-set skill allocation. This was difficult for me for sure!

It's definitely a nice level to try out different things, while not having any easy solution that stands out. I'm just curious which design process you used when making this level (if it doesn't give anything away about the level); I like building a level around a certain trick, others prefer starting with some terrain without a specific solution in mind, then trying to find solutions themselves and the refine things. I suspect the latter have the tendency to be a bit more backroute-prone, as the designer essentially has to do the work of a solver as well. Is your level made like this? The design looks really clean!

I don't usually like bumpy terrain (especially if I have to solve a level), but bumpy terrain is nice to hide features of the level in, and I might have succeeded, considering no-one has solved version 2 of my level yet as far as I know. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" /> Among the styles with bumpy terrain, rock is definitely my favourite.

or you can do like I do and pull out a flimsy level without any real good solution in mind  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

your level is tough Akseli, that's for sure. I keep coming close but no cigar...  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" /> as to geoo's level I don't even have a clue  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/scared.gif" alt=":scared:" title="Scared" class="smiley" />
what's with the title anyway? just random or is it a joke I don't get?
Clam's level is pretty ingenious on that line too  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />
and Steve's level now looks like a work of Picasso (not a bad thing) http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />
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are people getting points for every version of a level they solve? So the more versions the more points they'll get? (so it might be in my interest to not make revisions?  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" /> )

[Crane]

Well, after a delay, I've decided to post v6 of Prize Catch.  A couple more backroutes found, courtesy of Akseli and möbius.  Pooty is still the closest to completing it the intended way.

Sometimes I wonder if it's worth leaving in some backroutes to reward players for finding them, especially if they're particularly intricate.

[Proxima]

are people getting points for every version of a level they solve? So the more versions the more points they'll get? (so it might be in my interest to not make revisions?  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/devil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil" class="smiley" /> )

If geoo doesn't mind me stepping in to clarify -- the official category only scores the first version of each level. The "backroute jam" is an unofficial extra. But even for this, I doubt it's in your interest to leave a known backroute unfixed. So far, unless you've received solutions that you haven't announced, only I have scored by backrouting your level. If you leave it unfixed, every other player who finds the same backroute gets a point.

And, even though the backroute jam is unofficial, I hope everyone will play fair and announce all backroutes they receive. I'm pretty sure my solution to your version 2 is also a backroute, considering it uses fewer skills than my first solution....

geoo, I'd like to have some clarification on the rule that late entries lose one point in each category. Presumably this only applies to the categories in which the level itself scores points, and not to the author's points for number of levels solved? It seems unfair that I'd get fewer points if I submit a late entry than if I submit no entry at all.

(I am indeed hoping to submit a late entry... it's just very difficult to find time at the moment.)

[Gronkling]

Backroute found by Akseli, geoo, Pooty and Clam Spammer (Each had a different backroute  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> )

hopefully this fixes it (them). I'm not very good at self backroute checking.

[lyygak]

geoo, I didn't get your level to work in Lemmix. It complains something about FindGraphicSet 6 not found.
Tried style Original & ONML. (sorry if I asked a stupid question.)

By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?

[mobius]

in that case, geoo, Akseli and Proxima have all found solutions to both versions of my level respectively.

geoo, I didn't get your level to work in Lemmix. It complains something about FindGraphicSet 6 not found.
Tried style Original & ONML. (sorry if I asked a stupid question.)

By the way people, what of the levels of this contest you consider hardest?

you need the "CustLem" style. If that still doesn't work check your game data folder. maybe something got misplaced.

what levels do I consider hardest?  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />.. ALL of them!!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> I just spent a headache of a time trying to solve ISteve's to absolutely no avail... depressing  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />
But I think I'd rate geoo's as currently hardest as I don't even know where to begin. I made a few attempts that are clearly way off. Now I just don't know, I got nothing.

is my level very hard btw? Like I mentioned I made it quickly because geoo encouraged me to join but I had no real good ideas lately. I'm surprised, honestly that I managed to come up with that. Plus, while ISteve seems to be very good at making 1 of each skill levels I'm likewise terrible at it. (only attempted one other time and that failed because I needed to remove 1 skill)