Level records

[namida]

Say... has anyone beaten "Oblivion" without help yet? If not, maybe it should be on there for that... it's been out for what, 9 months now? "Longest time released without being solved without help"

[Conway]

Maybe, but I doubt anyone has been trying non-stop to pass it for that nine months!

[namida]

Even so.

[chaos_defrost]

I back-routed it about 3 times...  

[namida]

Yep. And I fixed every one of them.

[guest]

Say... has anyone beaten "Oblivion" without help yet? If not, maybe it should be on there for that... it's been out for what, 9 months now? "Longest time released without being solved without help"

I didn't even know of the existence of this level until you mentioned it now.  I very much doubt it would've taken me 9 months to either find a solution or a backroute.

So, if you can tell me where I can download the level, I'll take a go at it now.

Another thing:  "longest time released without being solved without help" is, IMHO not all that meaningful about the level itself, since it can mean one or more of the following things that have little to do with the level itself:

1) the people here easily give up on levels, or is relatively quick in starting to ask for hints and help

2) a lot of people here didn't even know about the level

3) given that not every lemmings player in the world knows about this forum, your level could've made this record by luck; there could easily have had been one new member on this forum in between those 9 months who would've been able to solve your level, and then the record wouldn't have been 9 months anymore

That being said, it's an interesting level record to keep track of anyway, even if of somewhat dubious value.

[guest]

(And they have to be interesting levels -- it wouldn't count if someone made a level where you have to save 1 of 300 just to break the records, unless that was needed for the idea of the level to work.)

This seems kinda vague.  Let's say I created a level that requires you to use stoppers to go from platform to platform (think level 3 in the original Lemmings).  I could easily extend this to infinity, so that you'll end up saving 1 of X with arbitrarily large X (subject to Cheapo limitations on level size I suppose).

Of course I'm sure you would say that this is unnecessary "for the idea of the level to work", which is certainly true.  But are you then sure that your 1 of 120 level couldn't have been modified, by modifying the terrain and the location of the exit, so that it still demonstrates the idea but allows for a higher percentage (eg. 1 of X with X less than 120)?  Because if such a modification exists, it would suggest that your level too is "unnecessary for the idea of the level to work", if there exists another level less extreme than yours that still uses your idea.

[guest]

(And they have to be interesting levels -- it wouldn't count if someone made a level where you have to save 1 of 300 just to break the records, unless that was needed for the idea of the level to work.)

I think the "shortest time limit" record also has an issue related to what you said above.  The problem is how to define "interesting".  Clearly the less skills required to solve the level, the more you can shorten the time limit, but of course at some point with so few required skills the level will no longer become interesting.  The question then is where to put this boundary between interesting and non-interesting, and this seems to require a subjective judgment call.

perhaps it might be better to make the record being the ratio of number of skills provided to the number of seconds given.

[Note that I'm in no way saying your level doesn't deserve this record.  this is just a theoretical discussion on the merits of the record itself.]

[guest]

In an effort to see which records are still open to being broken (and this is, by the way, why I talked earlier about issues with certain records--I was seeking clarification on what it means to "legally" break the records in issue).

But yes, as I said, in an effort to see which records are still open to being broken, this is the result:

"Most lemmings":  CLOSED

sadly, we won't get to make a level with more than 255 lemmings due to a technical limitation with Cheapo that has nothing to do with game design or level design.

But had the level file format support higher numbers, this record is definitely still open, since it's possible to break a level into independent sub-levels in order to require even higher number of lemmings, while maintaining a baseline of "interesting-ness" to the level.

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"Longest time limit":  OPEN

definitely opened to be broken.  Simply require more tasks to be done in the level should allow for higher time limits.  Of course, maybe I shouldn't say anything until I've actually see the current recordholding level myself.

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"Highest release rate":  CLOSED

again, curse Cheapo for not allowing higher numbers on this, but other than that I think this record is still probably still open, since you can shorten the time limit in order to help enforce higher release rates.

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"Largest area":  OPEN

I don't know what the Cheapo limitation is on level size, but aside from that this record is still open, since you can require more level area by giving the player more tasks to do.

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"Fewest total skills on a non-traning level":  OPEN

I'm surprised no one has yet make the logical step of creating a level that has 0 skills but still requires you to do something to get lemmings to the exit.  Once that's done the record will truly be closed, unless there's a way to get negative number of skills (I don't even know what the heck this would mean).

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"Most entrances":  OPEN

barring some Cheapo limitation (which I'm pretty sure would be higher than 50 anyway), this record is definitely still open, since you can require more entrances without sacrificing "interesting-ness", by having more independent sub-levels within the level, each with its own entrances

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Since I'm not interested in creating gigantic levels, I think I will take the task of breaking the last 2 records mentioned, that is unless someone else beats me to them first.

[guest]

I figure we might as well throw in a new record category:

"most number of level records held"

The current recordholder for this would of course be Adam's "The long trek to freedom", holding the record for both "longest time limit" and "largest area", as well as, of course, the record "most number of level records held"  .

I now look forward to see a level that has 255 lemmings out, has a time limit of 40:00, a release rate of 255, an area of 1600x1600, and has 51 entrances.  O_O

[Proxima]

Ultimate Challenge 3, the level pack containing Oblivion, can be downloaded here at Lemming Crazy.

I take your point about the vagueness of my "interesting level" criterion; really, though, that criterion was just meant to block people seeing this topic and thinking "Oh, I want a level record!"

I couldn't have changed the terrain on "A Shock to the System", incidentally, since I was designing that with ResEdit, which is a general resource file editor, and only accidentally includes Lemmings level-altering features.

Adam's level actually does use Cheapo's maximum allowed level size, so I think that one is closed. I don't know it if would be possible to get higher with a hex editor?

[guest]

"Fewest total skills on a non-traning level": &#A0;OPEN

I'm surprised no one has yet make the logical step of creating a level that has 0 skills but still requires you to do something to get lemmings to the exit.

Ok, I've now broken the record once and for all on this.  Here is a level with 0 skills, but you have to do something reasonably non-trivial to get to the exit.

Unfortunately I need to find a way to distribute the level on the web.  In the meanwhile, e-mail guestlevels@yahoo.com if you want to get the level.

(Note that I specifically setup that e-mail address for the purpose of this level, so I will only be replying to e-mails related to that level.  All other e-mails will be ignored.)

For those who solved the level, I would like to hear how you solved it, and more importantly, whether you were able to find a way to exceed the required number to save, because I truly have no idea what is the maximum you can save.

[Proxima]

You already know my e-mail address. Please send it.

[guest]

Oh yeah, the name of the level is......

"Fewest total skills on a non training level"

......yeah alright, the level title is awfully lame, but I assure you the level itself is far from lame......

[guest]

I've now also adjust the time limit so that it is 00:17, 3 seconds shorter than the current recordholder.

So I guess this level now also holds the record of "shortest time limit" as well.  And with 2 records held, the level is now tied with "the long trek to freedom" for "most number of level records held".