Glitches in Lemmini

[mobius]

I'm making a separate thread because the main glitch page is already pretty large and Lemmini is so different. I've started with a few that I know of. Then I'll look at the main glitch page and test each one to see if it works in Lemmini. Or something like that. <img src="http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt="" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

<strong><em>This isn't just a glitch thread but also a comparison of game-play mechanics. (compared mostly to Lemmix)</em></strong>
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*need to research

<strong>CLIMBERS</strong>
-climbers cannot climb through terrain and 'tricky looking' ledges as easily as DOS.
-"Lazy Climber" -If a climber reaches a one pixel wide ledge, it will totally ignore it and keep climbing. Then when it reaches the top it will fall back down (facing the same direction) and land on that ledge, then climb back up and return to normal.*
(see video in Gronklings post. I'll attach later)
-climbers can get 'stuck' with bashers and miners like in Lemmix.
[a climber reaches a miner or basher in progress and climbs up but falls because the basher removed terrain, the climber walks then climbs again so on and so forth. This is not always a permanent scenario. *I've recently had a climber stuck with a miner for 15-20 stokes then the climber finally turned around]
-If there is a blocker at the top of a climber's ledge it will turn around and fall. If there is a wall directly behind it, it will start climbing the wall instead.*
-When climbers "ascend" onto flat ground they can be assigned a skill for a brief period when they are basically floating in mid air, slightly higher and farther away from the terrain. This can be exploited to do various things*  (example) If a basher is assigned when the climber is in it's brief floating walker stage, and it hits steel, it will fall facing the same direction, all the way down the length it just climbed up.
(Gronkling)
-lemmings can climb up the edge of a level (even if there is no terrain there).

<strong>FLOATERS</strong>
-A floater can pass through one pixel wide floors if it is done at the right time.
(Gronkling)

<strong>BOMBERS</strong>
- If a climber is assigned the bomber skill and he's climbing a wall when the timer hits zero, he instantly explodes rather than going through the "Oh no" animation.
-If a falling bomber's countdown ends while splatting, he will still explode even while the splatting animation is taking place.
-*they way oh-no'ers fall may be different. more research is needed*

<strong>BLOCKERS</strong>
-Blockers can be assigned climbers and floaters, unlike in DOS/Lemmix. <img src="http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt="" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />
-CAN turn builders, miners, but NOT: bashers, diggers and fallers
-If a lemming is made a blocker when standing on nothing [or mostly nothing, e.g. a digger on the very edge of a ledge] it instantly falls.
-A blocker will stop a basher even during basher's even amount (=2nd, 4th, 6th...) of strokes cycle, unlike in DOS/Lemmix (without interruption basher stops only after its 1st, 3rd, 5th stroke etc.)
- When lemming falls above exactly to the position of blocker, it WON'T pass through the blocker, if it falls facing to the right. If lemming falls facing to the left, it WILL pass through the blocker. Oddly enough, lemmings walking from the right turns around nearer the center of the blocker than lemmings walking from the left.
- Lemmings WON'T pass through a blocker in either direction on top of a climb or in a very steep slope.
(Akseli)

<strong>BUILDERS</strong>
-the dig and build horizontal trick cannot be done because lemmings standing on nothing cannot be assigned builder.
-can build into ceiling to get lemming stuck
-can build through a thin platform
-can build through a thin wall (facing right) *facing left unknown*
- <del>A Builder building to the left positions his bricks slightly 'behind' the Builder when compared to building in the other direction.  This makes "stretching" ladders very difficult in this direction, and not as efficient as when building in the opposite direction.</del>
-builders are not "asymmetrical" as they are in DOS.
-builders bricks are placed closer to the lemming than in DOS, meaning bridges don't stretch as far.
-if a climber is made builder as soon as he reaches the top he will create an overhang.
-when a builder hits a wall, if positioned correctly, and turns around, if the top of the wall is low enough so that a walker would normally walk up it, the builder actually walks up but still turns around. The result is that for a brief moment the builder reaches a spot (higher) he does not in DOS and can be assigned skills there.
- When building to the ceiling of the map, lemming will TURN AROUND instead of walking in the same direction, like in DOS/Lemmix.
- Builders are ALWAYS able to start to bash/mine (successfully, without making a gap or so) when building to a vertical wall, instead of often turning around, like in DOS/Lemmix.*
- 'Stepover' turnaround trick DOESN'T work in Lemmini, unlike in DOS/Lemmix. (trick topic, builders)
(Akseli)
<Quote from: Clam Spammer in main glitch topic>
        [Turning a builder with a blocker between placing a brick and stepping onto it causes a fake brick to appear for a moment, and leaves a tiny hole in the bridge that lemmings cannot  get across.]
In Lemmini, there appears that fake brick which disappears, but there won't appear a hole. However, if executed right, the blocker will turn other lemmings around so that they will descend the bridge instead of ascending it.
(Akseli)

<strong>BASHERS</strong>
-CANNOT bash into  the slant of a miner's tunnel.
-bashers can cross pixel wide gaps*
-Sometimes a RIGHT FACING basher can stop bashing before he's actually done. That is; the basher will stop near the edge of the terrain but leave a thin sliver of terrain still there. Just enough to block the lemmings. This does not happen on left bashers.*
-bashers can be farther away from the wall to begin bashing then in DOS. This is because the detection area could be farther away from the lemming's body and higher than DOS.
-takes at least 7 digs on flat ground before being able to bash successfully. [this is different from Lemmix: 6]
- Bashers and Miners don't turn around if they strike metal or a one-way wall facing the wrong way.
- If a Basher or Miner hits metal or a one-way wall facing the wrong way, he will stop mid-swing instead of completing his stroke.  This in effect leaves a ledge in a tunnel that can then be used to climb onto a higher platform, including the Basher/Miner himself due to not turning around. (Crane)


<strong>MINERS</strong>
-The amount of terrain miners take away above and behind them is smaller than in Lemmix.*
-when a miner hits steel or arrows it may leave an inclined slope and will always walk on.
[unlike it Lemmix; the lemming will turn around even if it could walk on]

-The miner hovers above ground a tiny bit for a small part of its animation.
This makes the following happen:
-the miner cannot be assigned a builder or digger during this time.
-if blocker is assigned the lemming will become a walker.
-if basher is assigned the lemming will bash but always lower itself slightly to where it ought to be (at ground level)
-If a miner is assigned at the very edge of a platform it will fall farther away from the wall than a normal lemming.

-Two miners can cross if timed right
-Two miners can cancel each other out if timed right (see post by Gronkling below)*
-Miners can cross pixel wide gaps
-miners can pass through VERTICAL pixel thin walls
-Miners turn around when they hit the edge of a level
-A bit of terrain behind the miner is removed (Crane)

**test Tseug 2 miner stop. [If I ever do that, it's such a pain]

<strong>DIGGERS</strong>
-If you try to dig near enough to steel, it won't work but a one pixel indent will be made
-diggers stop digging if the terrain underneath them is narrower than in DOS. Example: in DOS a lemming can dig on the very edge of a 1 pixel terrain (and steel actually) This is not possible in Lemmini. [thus; digger/building combo to move horizontally doesn't work]
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<strong>miscellaneous glitches </strong>

-in Windows, you can't close the program by pressing Alt+F4. (I know this doesn't have to do with the game but it's annoying).
-direct drop does not work [Lemmings can't enter the exit from any height. They will splat if it is high enough]
-steel works (that's a surprise, right?)
-A small piece of terrain may be placed (hidden) behind the entrance to make lemmings come out facing left.
- The effect of changing release rate emerges immediately, NOT after the next lemming entering the level, like in DOS/Lemmix.
-trigger area detection is different; the size of trigger areas are generally larger in Lemmini. Most of them are larger and easier for the lemmings to access. This makes getting home easier but avoiding traps more difficult. Also trigger areas aren't locked into annoying grids like in DOS/Lemmix.
-In Lemmix the Lemmings feet must be in the detection or it doesn't work. In Lemmini it's much more lenient. Just the head can be in and it will work.
Visa versa; in Lemmix you can have the trigger area completely hidden by terrain as long as it is touching the edge where Lemmings will walk it will work. This doesn't work in Lemmini.
This has the problem of making the traps' area of effect far larger and much harder to clear by, say, building over it or bashing under it. This actually makes Taxing 4, "Lend a helping hand", impossible to complete without being cheesy and going through the left wall. (Crane)
- If 100 Lemmings have exited the trapdoor, and as you score 100% upon completing the level, all the text that appears after the appropriate figure on the status bar is shifted one character to the right as a result.  This is only a superficial bug but looks a little messy. (Crane)
- Release rate and skills can be selected with the mouse while the game is paused, unlike in
- You can assign worker lemming a skill while holding the right mouse button, since "force walker" button is up arrow key.
DOS/Lemmix. (Akseli)
- Lemmings make sound when dropping out of the play area, unlike in DOS/Lemmix.
- You can assign a skill to a lemming while the game is paused (which unpauses the game), unlike in DOS/Lemmix.(Akseli)
- Nuke glitch, - Pausing for time,  Right-click bug DO NOT work. (Akseli)
-the time limit is tighter in Lemmini for various reasons*
-arrow glitch:*
can be seen and (partly) explained here:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ5fc1PmJ5E" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ5fc1PmJ5E</a>
-if water is close enough to the bottom of the screen the drowning animation will not play and the lemming will squeal but the drowning sound will play also.

[Gronkling]

Heres all the ones I know (probably badly explained):
CLIMBERS (the glitchiest skill)
-Climbers stuck in walls will rise up in a strange way. You can assign skills to them if timed right.
-Putting a builder to block a jumper lemming will mean they also rise up, but they do not change direction (giants leap glitch)
-Climbers float as walkers for one frame when they finish climbing - the base of many other glitches
-If a climber goes over a one pixel wide ledge, it will keep going and when it reaches the top it will fall back down to the ledge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6SYrIlhOF0" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">a video)
-If there is a one pixel wide horizontal gap in the way of a climber, it will look like it will go onto it but doesn't. If a basher is used at the right time it will fall back down facing the same way, and if a blocker is used it will go through.
-A climber can get stuck with a miner if timed right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC6qIiTUWb4&list=PL326A6151C27506A0&index=67&feature=plpp_video" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">this level shows it well
-Climbers act strangely on one pixel walls.
-If there is a blocker where a climber wants to finish it will turn around and fall. If there is a wall directly behind it, it will start climbing that instead.
-They turn into walkers for one frame if terrain is removed beneath them
-If a basher is assigned when the climber is in it's brief floating walker stage, and it hits steel, it will fall facing the same direction
FLOATERS
-A floater can pass through one pixel wide walls if it is done at the right time.
BOMBERS
None so far
BLOCKERS
-Blockers will stop miners if the miner is turned into one at the right time
-Blockers will stop diggers if they are on thin enough ground and you turn one into a blocker
BUILDERS
-Builders can build through one pixel walls
-You can push lemmings into ceilings by building enough
BASHERS
-Will stop if they finish their cycle one pixel before the edge
-A bit of terrainbehind the basher is removed
MINERS
-Two miners can cross if timed right
-Two miners can cancel eachother out if timed even righter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jBGsGKoVMU" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Example
-Miners can cross pixel wide gaps
-Miners turn around when they hit the edge of a level
-A bit of terrain behind the miner is removed
DIGGERS
-If you try to dig near enough to steel, it won't work but a one pixel indent will be made
MISC
-Inverted objects don't work
-Lots and lots of crashes
-Terrain can be hidden after the edge of a level

I keep finding new ones so I'll put any I find (or remember) here.

[mobius]

I'll take a good look at all of these later. For now I'll ask a few questions. I'm being very specific but I like to be regarding glitches. (generally they're all very specific in nature). thanks for the input.
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I haven't experienced many crashes... actually I think none.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />
I have had to extract again a few times though, I know why now.


inverted objects: you mean they appear but the "trigger area" isn't there? or in other words, nothing will happen when the lemming passes over it?

floaters: do you mean vertical walls? or horizontal?

blockers: do you mean they totally stop? (not turn around) I don't quite understand those two.


"-Terrain can be hidden after the edge of a level"    --I don't understand what you mean by this at all.

I looked at the videos, they're nice. I didn't get to test anything yet however.

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sometime you have to show me how to add custom graphics and sound into Lemmini. I need detailed instructions because I'm slow and impatient.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

Bashing above the top of the level causes a crash (http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=397.msg9065#msg9065" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">link, pic attached requires login to view)

[Gronkling]

inverted objects: you mean they appear but the "trigger area" isn't there? or in other words, nothing will happen when the lemming passes over it?

Yes

floaters: do you mean vertical walls? or horizontal?

Horizontal

blockers: do you mean they totally stop? (not turn around) I don't quite understand those two.

They just stop the mining process, so the lemming will keep on going.

"-Terrain can be hidden after the edge of a level"    --I don't understand what you mean by this at all.

You can make lemmings go off one of the edges of the level and if there's terrain there, they will still be able to interact with it for a while.

[mobius]

-If a climber goes over a one pixel wide ledge, it will keep going and when it reaches the top it will fall back down to the ledge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6SYrIlhOF0" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">a video)

I watched the video and that is really strange! But what is stranger is I can't replicate it, at all.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" /> I made terrain in just the way you did (using Lemmix) and played it in Lemmini. I tried a few different things but nothing worked. The Lemming just climbs up like normal. [It's hoists and walks for a tiny period at the ledge then begins climbing again]. What terrain set did you use? (I used dirt but I can't see why that would matter anyway.

Only thing I can think of is; is it possible you have an earlier version and later versions fixed this glitch? I only got Lemmini in the spring.

[Gronkling]

-If a climber goes over a one pixel wide ledge, it will keep going and when it reaches the top it will fall back down to the ledge (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6SYrIlhOF0" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">a video)

I watched the video and that is really strange! But what is stranger is I can't replicate it, at all.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" /> I made terrain in just the way you did (using Lemmix) and played it in Lemmini. I tried a few different things but nothing worked. The Lemming just climbs up like normal. [It's hoists and walks for a tiny period at the ledge then begins climbing again]. What terrain set did you use? (I used dirt but I can't see why that would matter anyway.

Only thing I can think of is; is it possible you have an earlier version and later versions fixed this glitch? I only got Lemmini in the spring.

Are you saving them as .lvl files because those use lemmix pixels which count as two lemmini pixels, so glitches to do with one pixel gaps won't work. You have to save as a .ini file.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

crap  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />
so all this time the experimentation I've been doing is invalid.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sick.gif" alt=":sick:" title="Sick" class="smiley" />  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

the trouble is I think I once tried saving INI files and couldn't for some reason... but I have to look into it.

[Crane]

A couple I found.  Not sure whether to class them as bugs though and just different interpretations of the "rules".

BOMBER

- If a climber is assigned the bomber skill and he's climbing a wall when the timer hits zero, he instantly explodes rather than going through the "Oh no" animation.  Not a bug per se, but I initially didn't realise this and had to redesign one of my Lemmini levels to work under CustLemm due to timing problems.

BUILDER

- A Builder building to the left (I think) positions his bricks slightly 'behind' the Builder when compared to building in the other direction.  This makes "stretching" ladders very difficult in this direction, and not as efficient as when building in the opposite direction.

BASHER / MINER

- Bashers and Miners don't turn around if they strike metal or a one-way wall facing the wrong way.
- If a Basher or Miner hits metal or a one-way wall facing the wrong way, he will stop mid-swing instead of completing his stroke.  This in effect leaves a ledge in a tunnel that can then be used to climb onto a higher platform, including the Basher/Miner himself due to not turning around.

MISC

- As mentioned above, Lemmini is a lot more lenient in regards to whether a lemming is inside a trigger area or not.  This has the problem of making the traps' area of effect far larger and much harder to clear by, say, building over it or bashing under it. This actually makes Taxing 4, "Lend a helping hand", impossible to complete without being cheesy and going through the left wall.

- If 100 Lemmings have exited the trapdoor, and as you score 100% upon completing the level, all the text that appears after the appropriate figure on the status bar is shifted one character to the right as a result.  This is only a superficial bug but looks a little messy.

[Simon]

Some of these aren't glitches, at least not in the sense of unwanted behavior. I don't know whether Lemmini physics are meant to stay as close to Lemmings as possible. They differ in several places. If metal-hitting miners do not turn around, you can estimate that 100 percent DOS mechanics weren't desired.

In this light, some of the mentioned odd behaviors may actually be intended: Increased trigger areas, (the Java crashes http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)

I had many of these odd-seeming behaviors in earlier versions of Lix: Building through slim walls, leaving a thin wall after bashing, etc. The obvious method to program a climber is to have the effective coordinate in the space directly outside of the vertical wall. If it turns into an oh-noer, it will naturally fall down. To remedy this, the easiest method is to have it instantly explode. Other methods are to move it into the wall at that time, or to shift the effective coordinate into the wall at all times during climbing. The latter solution is very intricate and touches code of other skills as well.

Lemmini also works with doubled resolution, and getting that to work seamlessly is a long and winding task. Floaters and miners skipping pixels are probable bugs in these physics, although even the L1 miner can skip over a one-pixel gap.

-- Simon

[mobius]

I updated the first post.

blockers: do you mean they totally stop? (not turn around) I don't quite understand those two.

They just stop the mining process, so the lemming will keep on going.
still be able to interact with it for a while.

I think I understand what you mean now: you assign the miner or digger himself blocker, and he just stops mining and continues walking? [Much like the glitch in revolution which you stop a builder in the same way?]

[Gronkling]

I updated the first post.

blockers: do you mean they totally stop? (not turn around) I don't quite understand those two.

They just stop the mining process, so the lemming will keep on going.
still be able to interact with it for a while.

I think I understand what you mean now: you assign the miner or digger himself blocker, and he just stops mining and continues walking? [Much like the glitch in revolution which you stop a builder in the same way?]

Yes, I do it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2ZbhSKNusM" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">here as an example.

[Simon]

This seems to be a glitch of the miner instead of the blocker. Apparently, the miner is hovering above the ground. Even the animation is skippy when he is repositioned onto the floor.

The blocker is merely the only skill which is immediately affected by lack of ground.

-- Simon

[Minim]

I think this is more of a trick than a glitch, but on Lemmini I think the drop from the entrance is a few pixels higher than the drop in Lemmix. Here's where I found this out

Back in 2008 I created some levels where lemmings could fall left without any visible terrain, in particular the 'platform panic' and the 'left right splitter' (Which are on the 13th set). I notice that the trick works on Lemmini, but not on Lemmix. If I did want to do something like this for Lemmix I'd probably have to use the crystal set, because there is some black on some of the terrain pieces.

[mobius]

Gronkling made at least one level [Brick City] using this trick. It is very useful. And as far as I can tell nearly impossible for the player to undo.
It would be much easier to undo in Lemmix. But anyway, it's a good mention. I'll look into why it works later.