Level Review--Lemmings Revolution

[kaywhyn]

It's perfectly fine with me if you want to add more comments to any level; I've been doing that after all

Yes, I know, you said that already here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1511.msg83909#msg83909 However, I like the comments from others on levels who didn't review them as well

no I was able to solve the level before even knowing about the glitch or LemSteven's solution

Spoiler

Just build up to a spot directly but high above the laser gate then let the builder fall and die. He splats but his dying body still trips the gate and opens the door to the exit. You still have to deal with the weasels but I usually lead them to the water. 

Ah, I totally didn't think about doing that at all. Before that, I was very confused how else you could get to the laser gate. I do like the concept of letting the enemy do the task instead though

I've never had a weasel be set free and not die from the shredders but that seems like a remote possibility.

Oh yeah I understand. No I meant how the "device" intended to kill the weasels is this whacky super fast shredders. Occasionally I've seen a weasel gets very near the ground before getting deaded. I just wonder if the timing could ever be just so to actually let one escape.

Ah, my mistake. I completely misread that.

Oh interesting, maybe I don't remember but I hadn't thought of this level as being backrouted; and maybe there is actually a hard/long roundabout solution. I thought it was just *super* misplaced. I want to boot up the game now and take a look at this level... but I don't feel like playing through the whole damn game just to do that

Let me know if you want me to send you my save file for the game so that you don't have to go through the whole thing again

I'll wait just a bit before reviewing again to give someone else a chance. [I already have reviews of the rest of the game pre-written up.... because I use my time wisely.

Lol, nice

[mobius]

12-8 Just You Wait
100 Lemmings save 98
4:10

2 of each climber, floater bomber and blocker, 5 builders and 1 each of basher miner and digger.

Good: The first in group of my personal favorite levels of the game, along with Waste Not Want not, as one of the more challenging and complex (and non backroute plagued) levels and also satisfying to solve.
There seem to be a ton of possibilities on what to do at the start; how/where to contain the crowd, which path to take, where to send the worker(s), how many you need, and a very limited skillset. My solution wasn't super fiddly either, that I remember, but challenging to work out.


Bad: Time limit is unnecessarily short. There's a 50-50 fall from the left of the entrance, but I think this one was supposed to be deadly. I can't remember if this lets you do anything weird or actually use that as a viable part of the solution. I think how I solved the level the first time I didn't go that way. The usual teleporter shenanigans.

[kaywhyn]

^ I don't know how you solved the level, but here I was able to solve it

Spoiler

without activating the retractable floor beneath the teleporter leading to the exit.

You also forgot the level number


12-9: Turn on! Tune in! Switch on!

Number of Lemmings: 100

Save: 94

Time: 3 minutes 45 seconds

Release Rate: Two entrances both with a RR of 50. Left entrance has lemmings go out to the right, while the right entrance lemmings go out to the left.

Skills: 3 climbers, 1 floater, 6 bombers, 5 blockers, 4 builders, and 2 each of bashers, miners, and diggers.

Good: Nice challenging level and puzzle whose solution is not easy to figure out at all. I really like how you have to get around the problem of the splat heights without the use of the floater, as it doesn't really help much in getting the others down safely. Requires multiple workers, some upside down, and at least one to be upside up to prepare the route ahead. Makes very good use of the anti-gravity pads in what I think is the intended solution to get make a splatform for an upside-up lemming to go to the left past a retractable door to activate a series of levers to open up the way to the exit later on. It's definitely up there with one of my favorite puzzles, except

Bad: Unless I severely overcomplicated the solution and easier solutions exist, there is the extremely annoying timing element where you have to release the crowd at the right time with where the upside down scout is who activates a series of levers. Not so early that the first retractable floor doesn't activate to catch the crowd on time before they arrive, but not so late that the scout activates the next retractable floor while deactivating the current one the crowd walks on that they haven't had the chance to be over the next one. I often had the timing too late or too early and not just right.   

[LemSteven]

I am not aware of any way around the timing element on Turn on! Tune in! Switch on!  The key is to compress the crowd as much as possible behind a blocker.  Even then, the timing is annoyingly precise.  Fortunately, there is a good indicator of when to bomb the blocker holding the crowd: It's almost at the exact same moment that the scout hits the ceiling after getting flipped upside down by the anti-gravity pad.

Outside of that timing annoyance, I agree that it is one of the best puzzles in the game, which uses the anti-gravity pads to their full potential.


12-10: My friend the end.
Lemmings: 50
Save: 49
Release Rate: 1
Time: 3:30
Skills: 3 climbers, 10 floaters, 3 bombers, 2 blockers, 10 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner, 2 diggers

Good: The first time I played through the game, this was the first level in the final column that I encountered, and it did not disappoint!  Right off the bat, the crowd starts in a perilous situation, with a splat fall from the entrance into a empty water tank that will be soon be filled by the singleton lemming.  It was a very intimidating introduction to the final column for me, and it requires quick action right at the beginning to get everyone to safety.

Bad: Once you've got the crowd safely in the holding area, the rest of the level becomes a simple trailblazer exercise.  The singleton lemming essentially has no purpose other than hitting switches.

[kaywhyn]

I am not aware of any way around the timing element on Turn on! Tune in! Switch on!  The key is to compress the crowd as much as possible behind a blocker.  Even then, the timing is annoyingly precise.  Fortunately, there is a good indicator of when to bomb the blocker holding the crowd: It's almost at the exact same moment that the scout hits the ceiling after getting flipped upside down by the anti-gravity pad.

I think you're right. I kept thinking that it is possible, by sending the crowd into the narrow corridor to the left so that they all use the gravity pad, but ultimately what makes any other route impossible besides the one with very precise timing is due to how there are vertical walls which they cannot get past without either becoming climbers themselves (you only have 3) or you build them out, but you only have 4, two of which are to make a splatform while upside down and another to avoid the gravity pad inside the first small water tank. In addition, the level title wouldn't even fit if any other route was possible, similar to how it's already a downer with "The Long and Winding Road," for which you can severely shortcut the level and easily avoid any losses.

[mobius]

^ I don't know how you solved the level, but here I was able to solve it

Spoiler

without activating the retractable floor beneath the teleporter leading to the exit.

I think I initially solved it with without knowing you could do that, so I found whatever switch pulls out that floor. I know there is a solution which feels more intended but runs much closer to the time limit. And one which avoids more parts of the level and is quicker. I can't remember the details though.

I am not aware of any way around the timing element on Turn on! Tune in! Switch on!  The key is to compress the crowd as much as possible behind a blocker.  Even then, the timing is annoyingly precise.  Fortunately, there is a good indicator of when to bomb the blocker holding the crowd: It's almost at the exact same moment that the scout hits the ceiling after getting flipped upside down by the anti-gravity pad.

Outside of that timing annoyance, I agree that it is one of the best puzzles in the game, which uses the anti-gravity pads to their full potential.


12-10: My friend the end.

Agree; the hardest part of that level [my friend the end] is in the opening area, and secondary area directly to the east of that with the switch beneath the door which is not trivial to navigate either. The other part of the level is a switch guessing game, with an out of reach switch that only hinders you... And one switch that doesn't work; it doesn't even animate for some reason.

also love the overall appearance of these 3 or 4 levels on the last row; esp. Turn on, tune in switch on... there's a gazillion switches, some are upside down, doors everywhere, looks very daunting at first.
Another bad point about that level: with a large group of lemmings clumping it's easier for this level to crash the game.

-----------

12-11 My Finest Moment

50 Lems save 49

3:00

3 climbers
10 bombers
2 builders
2 bashers
3 miners
2 diggers

Good: Another very daunting level at first glance with so much empty space and deadly fall heights. It isn't obvious or easy to figure out what the best route is or where to contain the crowd. This is one of the few levels in the game which has switches labeled with colored lights to tell you what they operate.

Bad: Aaaand where back into bizzaro world and backroute country. Like many other levels mentioned up to this point there's a lot of things that don't make sense here to me, like the timed door which you can easily dig/mine under.  Honestly this level feels kind of slapped together imo or like they were experimenting with stuff then decided to just call this a level.
There's a simple backroute of bomb glitching to the ground near the balloon then building up from there. The switches are essentially both useless (unless I'm remembering incorrectly) I don't think you need to pull out the retractable wall. In fact; there is yet another 50-50 fall glitch in this level, two or several actually; one not featured in pirohiko's video if memory serves is falling onto that retractable wall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IaViCl31vs&list=PL0750E99D04921FDE&index=96

[LemSteven]

Agree; the hardest part of that level [my friend the end] is in the opening area, and secondary area directly to the east of that with the switch beneath the door which is not trivial to navigate either. The other part of the level is a switch guessing game, with an out of reach switch that only hinders you... And one switch that doesn't work; it doesn't even animate for some reason.

Wow, I completely forgot about the out of reach switch when I reviewed that level.  Since the solution doesn't use it and it's out of the way, I've always treated it as if it wasn't there.

I'm wondering if the designers meant to have that switch facing the other direction.  As an experiment, I had the trailblazer build up there and walk the length of the corridor back and forth, hitting the switch twice.  After doing that, there was just enough time left to complete the level normally.  It would certainly make the level a lot more challenging if the switch started out reversed, such that by walking back and forth in that corridor you would only hit the switch once, opening the path to the teleporter.

[kaywhyn]

12-12: Mission Impossible

Number of Lemmings: 20

Save: 20

Time: 2 minutes

Release Rate: 4 entrances: top left RR 20, top right RR 40, bottom left RR 80, and bottom right RR 60. The entrances on the left side have Lemmings going out to the left, while the Lemmings in the right entrances go out to the right.

Skills: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 bashers, and 3 diggers.

Good: The level is essentially Revolution's version of Havoc 14 from ONML, with the 4 mini-levels here more or less the exact same as the ONML level, except you have double the amount of time to save all 20 Lemmings instead of just 1 minute and need to save all 80. As such, you can more or less use the exact same solution as the ONML level, though I think some variations are possible? It is interesting to see Revolution's take on remaking a level from another official Lemmings game, especially on a level with multiple entrances with different RR's and hence how such a level would play out under Revolution's RR system.

Bad: Do we really need another remake of an official Lemmings level? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe some of the skill tutorial levels are more or less a rehash of the first several levels of the Fun rank from L1?) Also an easy level for this very late in the game despite the small time limit. Maxing out the RR's isn't mandatory at all. As my solution shows, you don't even need to touch the RR on any of the trapdoors whatsoever. I guess the slower speed of the destructive skills in the game is already the big hindrance and therefore the reason why you only have a 1/4 of the number of Lemmings.

Also @mobius I added the level number to your post of your review of "Just You Wait"!  

[mobius]

12-13 Race Against Time
Lemmings: 45
Save: 45
3:00 minutes
2 Climbers, floaters, 5 builders, 1 basher, 5 miners, 1 digger

Good: It's a decent time management puzzle and overall and interesting layout, sans timing puzzles. Kind of has some "How do I dig up the way" vibes but more complicated.

Bad: This level really has nothing unique to offer; yet another one that could easily be remade in the original with no Revolution features. Is too easy for it's position and isn't even that much of a timing puzzle, despite its title. Certainly not compared to some other levels in this game which shall remain nameless (or the very next level for example...), this level's time management is practically a cake walk. Definitely lackluster as the penultimate level, but keep in mind that the game wasn't really intended to be played in this linear way so it's not *really* the penultimate level. It certainly wasn't for me but then this level along with the chunk of four in the corner were locked for me for the longest time because of the previous levels I could not beat (including Waste Not Want Not part 2)

It's best I'm not the one to review the final level because I've never beaten it!

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, let's finish this off once and for all!

12-14: It's Going to Take Time

Number of Lemmings: 100

Save: 99

Time: 10 minutes

Release Rate: 5. The Lemmings also alternate going out left and right, with the first Lemming going out to the right.

Skills: 2 climbers, 2 floaters, 1 blocker, 11 builders, 10 bashers, 3 miners, and 5 diggers.

Good: Quite possibly the hardest level of the entire column, it presents a great variety of obstacles to get through, with some difficult sections that require a great deal of thinking in order to get past. At least in my solution, every skill is accounted for except for one builder I managed to spare. This therefore means I could had saved everyone instead of lose 1 had I used that builder at the start rather than the blocker and hence all skills except for the blocker are used. A very nice level to finish off the game on with the wide assortment of obstacles and tricky puzzle areas.

Bad: Oh gosh, my biggest criticism of the level is how the builders need to be placed very precisely. I don't think there's any section where you can afford to have the builder turn around, or else you waste too much time and will very likely run the clock out. To add insult to injury, there's an inconvenient lever at the very end of the level which is unavoidable to activate which would cause the shredder trap to slowly move towards the balloon. The shredder trap near the very end will probably very likely put your entire attempt to naught. Just when you think you have the level solved, if you release the crowd too early or too late, you'll find your Lemmings get ripped to pieces by the shredder because it happens to be in the way and in the wrong place at the wrong time. I can definitely understand why Colorful Arty didn't finish the level, because this level will probably prove to be more frustrating than it needs to be with the extreme precision needed with the builders and just how you need to find the right time to release the crowd so that you don't run out of time but also so the shredder trap doesn't kill your Lemmings.

Needless to say, if there's any level where being able to "replay all your actions" would be a life saver, it's this one! Unfortunately, Lemmings Revolution has no such replay feature It really is a huge pain to do everything all over again, especially with placing all builders very precisely all over again, with the worse being how you won't know if you placed the builder correctly until it's too late because the Lemming ends up turning around. There's fast forward, but that's not the same thing as all your skill actions being replayed back until you click to interrupt and take over again.

The time limit also looks quite generous at first but is actually tight on the level. Fortunately, I managed to finish with a little over a minute to spare, but still, the 10 minutes runs out quite fast!

Well, it might have taken a while (12 years according to when mobius started this thread ), but we finally reviewed all 102 levels of Lemmings Revolution! Nice job and thanks to everyone who contributed to the review thread!