Undamaged Levels (ONML etc.)

[ccexplore]

As I first http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=322.msg14504#msg14504" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">reported on the "min skills for gold" topic, you can save all lemmings on Sports 6 using 1 roper, 1 platformer and a 3rd skill like jumper.  So that gives you an undamaged solution.  (And yes, it was actually for this challenge that gotten me to work out the solution.)

It uses crawling so currently I'm putting it onto the "glitch" side of the record.  I've put a "no glitch" record of 1 for now (the superlem), but actually there's a good chance you can save the 10 rock climbers as well, but I need to try that some other time later.

[Clam]

I've decided to change tack completely and take a look at Lemmings 3. I was going to post a wall of text explaining everything about this game, but then I found http://www.abandonia.com/files/extras/25220_game_extra_1.pdf" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">The Manual, so you can go look at that instead http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />. Even if you have zero interest in the challenge, it's worth reading for the laughs http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

A few points specific to the challenge, feel free to dispute any of these:

• For the sake of consistency and comparability between levels, I'm using the default number (20) of lemmings to start each level. I've attached a save file that lets you play any level with 20 lemmings in the hatch (note: overwrites the 8th (lowermost) savegame, if you have one).
• Walking on disappearing platforms don't count as 'damage'. Not sure about other destruction of these at this stage.
• Damage from the nuke doesn't count, because AFAIK there isn't a way to quit without nuking - it auto-nukes on time up - and this just takes away from the potential of the challenge.

Bold means all lemmings saved, including bonus lemmings. Not on the list means I didn't save any http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />.

L3 Classic
1: 20
2: 20
4: 20
5: 20
7: 20
9: 20
10: 20
13: 22
15: 23
16: 20
20: 15
21: 20
22: 20
23: 20
25: 21
27: 11
28: 20
29: 21

Notes/spoilers on individual levels below. Pics are in the attached zip. If anyone here actually has the game, I could make replays - the game has its own replay functionality (as I keep having to remind myself http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />).

13:

Block (1st pic) to merge the group. Walk the right blocker - it should merge in, and these 9 lemmings all go across to the right. Send the other lemming left to get the bricks, jump the gap and build over to where the others are. The next bit is tricky: use walkers to get the group merged as tightly as possible, except for one lemming very slightly behind - this lemming must be one of the two holding bricks. Use this lemming to block the others at the right (3rd pic). Make the other brick-holder build up one step (this pushes the grouped lemming up), then stop. Walk the blocker, and before it moves away (after which it can't get back in), have it build up to join the others (4th pic). Then simply build out, using the extra lemming on the platform above to help.

25: Attached screenshots show where to place the bricks. I didn't actually play the solution out as it's horribly tedious - you need to jump the lemmings individually over all the gaps, and move them along so they don't get stuck under the staircases. The only possible issue is running out of time, but that seems very unlikely to rule out this solution (with Lix's control features it'd be cake).

27: Probably improvable with the techniques used in level 13, but I didn't bother at this point.

28: Attached screenshot shows how to place the bricks on the left side. The leftmost part on the upper platform is for containing and then releasing the group.

[ccexplore]

I've updated results on the OP using your current rules.  Amazing how quickly we've gotten almost all games to have some results reported! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> (I'm looking at you, 3D Lemmings......)

Walking on disappearing platforms don't count as 'damage'. Not sure about other destruction of these at this stage.

I'm not even sure how I feel about mere walking, but I'm guessing it's impossible to avoid in too many levels.  At some point I may mark all such levels that require the disappearance of such platforms.

Damage from the nuke doesn't count, because AFAIK there isn't a way to quit without nuking - it auto-nukes on time up - and this just takes away from the potential of the challenge.

Seems fair enough.  Although with greater use of steel terrain in the game, the nuke may not be as damaging as it sounds.  Jumping a lemming can also help avoid collateral damage.  So I'm a little curious in how many levels are nuke damage actually unavoidable, even if it's too pedantic and tedious to require this detail from other people reporting results.

[ccexplore]

Walking on disappearing platforms don't count as 'damage'. Not sure about other destruction of these at this stage.

I'm not even sure how I feel about mere walking, but I'm guessing it's impossible to avoid in too many levels.  At some point I may mark all such levels that require the disappearance of such platforms.

I did a quick look and indeed, most levels with disappearing platforms (DP) practically throw your lemmings right into them from the start.  Classic 15 is the only one I found so far where it is possible to avoid disturbing them (and that's in great part because the DP usage there is extremely limited).

I have updated the OP and marked all the levels where some DPs must disappear (actually not sure about Classic 27 and 28 since I haven't played them normally myself, let alone for this challenge).  I've clarified the rule to allow DP to disappear by means of normally non-destructive actions only.  Most of the time it means walking, but at least on one level (Classic 16), unless I missed something, it is your unavoidable shimmying at the start that takes out a bunch of ceiling DPs to release the builder pick-ups.  That's still okay because shimmying normally does not destroy terrain.  Whereas if you take out DP via something like the spade or bomb tools, that's not allowed for now.  (Truthfully, I doubt that would make much difference anyhow, as typically DP are used in place of regular terrain precisely so they disappear under otherwise harmless actions.)

Relatedly, although I don't believe this is in contention (nor does it seem too restrictive, though I haven't played every level in L3 yet to say for sure), I'm not inclined to allow the mole destroying terrain either, as it's just too ridiculous to call the normal Egyptian 13 solution "undamaged". http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

Revolution has disappearing platforms too. I just accepted that that's part of the level so it doesn't count; however I'd like to try and find a way around it (level which include them)


11-9 Goonies 100%
11-11 Tanks a lot 100%
11-12 Two Laps final 100%
12-1 Green with Envy 100%* glitches
12-4 (no brainer)

edit: this refers to 12-1
One way is to invisibly dig next to the right side time door down to the area below that. (Be careful because it's very easy to trigger the time door and kill lemmings). Then, down there, block them off but separate a acid lemming to go into the acid. You'll notice this time door is glitchy; if lemmings fall through it from the right most side, it doesn't count down. The acid lemming can climb to the right and close the door over the acid pool and the rest of the lemmings are free.

The other (theoretical) way I have (harder but slightly less glitchy) is to make the right (acid) entrance RR up to about 70 for 4 lemmings then back to 1. have 3 first lemmings come out build next to each other then the fourth one bashes then stops/builds to make a straight wall. Meanwhile make another lemming coming in a blocker very close to the wall. Next have yet another coming from the left build over the blocker. The idea is to make a tiny space to compact the lemmings so they can sneak through the time door.
While all this is happening the first 3 lemmings should be finished building. Let 1 go but turn around the rest (by building toward the time door; they'll turn around) the two acid lemmings that turned around; have one bash toward the mass of lemmings but stop him so that there's just 1 pixel wall blocking the lemmings.
Make a water lemming a climber to go right. After the 1 acid lemming and 1 water lemming goes to the right there should be "3" left on the door there.
On the route they continue on complete the simple tasks they have to do to make the way safe for any lemmings; then free the other lemmings by bashing through the thin wall you left for yourself. The crowd will sneaky past the time door and follow the long way to the balloon. Not sure how I'd try to save the last two lemmings; the blocker and the one bashing, he'd have to get stuck in the crowd somehow and that's tricky. While bashing he becomes separated....

You could probably do the same procedure for the left side but since the lemmings are already facing right I did it this way. This way would use 1-less glitch then the above (no invisible digging)

[Clam]

Seems fair enough.  Although with greater use of steel terrain in the game, the nuke may not be as damaging as it sounds.  Jumping a lemming can also help avoid collateral damage.  So I'm a little curious in how many levels are nuke damage actually unavoidable, even if it's too pedantic and tedious to require this detail from other people reporting results.

In Classic, there's some unavoidable nuke damage on:
2 - bonus lems trapped in tiny cells
16 - bonus lem destroys at least a tiny bit of DP
25 - unsaveable bonus lem stands on destroyable terrain
28 - top bonus lem surrounded by destroyable terrain
29 - bonus lem destroys DP above him.

27 and 28 certainly require destruction of DP for this challenge, in fact on 28 it's unavoidable in any solution.

[ccexplore]

In Classic, there's some unavoidable nuke damage on:
2 - bonus lems trapped in tiny cells

Hmm, I seem to remember that when I tested that particular level, it turned out that at the moment when the bonus lems explode from the timeout auto-nuke, they were both standing in positions that appear to result in no explosion damage.  Perhaps I missed spotting the damage?

Your list is still rather shorter than expected though, so maybe I will notate them with some sort of symbol like I did for DPs.

um, nothing to see here... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

In Classic, there's some unavoidable nuke damage on:
2 - bonus lems trapped in tiny cells

Hmm, I seem to remember that when I tested that particular level, it turned out that at the moment when the bonus lems explode from the timeout auto-nuke, they were both standing in positions that appear to result in no explosion damage.  Perhaps I missed spotting the damage?

It cleanly removes the bar that separates the two lemmings, and exactly nothing else. Maybe not the easiest thing to spot http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Oh, right. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/embarrassed.gif" alt=":-[" title="Embarrassed" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

Doing other L2 tribes in a random order now. Here's Space:

1: 60
2: 60 (no damaging skills except exploder, which can be avoided)
3: 1
5: 60
6: 60 (the level has no damaging skills)
8: 1 (stack up to the top teleporter and use the chain to go through the wall)
9: 60 (again, there are no damaging skills)
10: 60 (fire the bazookas into steel and they destroy nothing http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />)

[ccexplore]

Alright, finally gotten around to wrapping up Sports:

1: none
2: none
3: 60
4: 60
5: 1*
6: 11 (60*)
7: 6 (8*)
8: 2 (60*)
9: 1 (60*)
10: 60

Screenshots attached for 5, 8 and 9, with glitches.  5 and 9 are actually heavily based on existing challenge solutions.  Also notes below.  Sports 8 turned out to be quite a tough one, using up almost all skills and required setting up crawling twice, one time via additional glitches.

Need to go somewhere, so Sports 7 details will come later maybe.

As seen in screenshots, pour at a particular spot and you will trigger the pouring lemming to crawl up the side of the pit afterwards.

To trigger crawling to get up the steel block at the beginning, assign lemming the pole vaulter just immediately before he turns around at the steel block (ie. lemming still facing right).  This triggers a glitch whereby the lemming will end up slightly inside the block after immediately failing to pole-vault.  However, at this point his crawling won't get you anywhere.  Instead, wait for lemming to turn left inside the block, just before crawling starts, and assign him stomper then.  Because the game starts the crawling only when the lemming can't walk for 2 consecutive frames, this otherwise useless (and undamaging due to all the steel) stomping will tweak things so that when lemming finally starts to crawl, it will be successful bringing him up the top of the steel block, and facing right.

The rest is shown in the screenshots, with crawling being used in an obvious place.

A single well-aimed roper at the start will create a crawling path to the terrain overhead.  However the aim is a little unintuitive.  You are shooting for the corner, but you need to purposely put the mouse cursor a bit short of the actual target spot.  Doing so will cause the rope anchor to basically rotate slightly between the time it overshoots the mouse cursor and reaches the corner location, and only with that do you get the required crawling setup.  See screenshots.

[mobius]

11-3 The Diving Board 99/100 with reset glitch. 98/100 (required) without.
99 is the max with no damage.

I think it's possible to get 99 with no glitches. I've tried unsuccessfully to use just 2 builders at the normal lemmings start area to get to the switch in time for the water lemmings to get to the pool without having to block them off. (thus not having to use a reset glitch). One blocker on the right side of the water lemmings entrance can be freed by a build/bash. I use the final 4th builder to stall a water lemming.
It comes sooo close though. Irritatingly close. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

12-2 Anger Love Hate. 49/50

Again, getting 100% no glitches is irritatingly close. You can use builders all the way and the lemming that goes to flip the switch can even climb up through the thin retractable floor. (idk if this is considered a glitch or not I mentioned it on "Going in all directions") I use 1 bomber to blow a safe hole through the builders steps for the rest of the lemmings.
It seems like there should be a way to get the worker to turn around so he can build to the other steps instead of using the bomber; after flipping the switch but I haven't figured a way yet. I'm still trying however.

[ccexplore]

I've confirmed that DOS Lemmings 2's Outdoor tribe can be completed undamaged.  (ie. no impossible levels in that tribe for this challenge)  In fact it's possible to do so without using any glitches or crawling.  (Note: for Outdoor 9, having a lemming get through one of those 4-pixel thick platforms by repeated building/"build-through" does not count as a glitch.  It looks natural enough and has been established behavior in Lemmings 1 as well.)  Moreover, every level is solvable undamaged even if you start the level with only 1 lemming, so you can literally go through the tribe level by level and still complete all of them.

No gold of course from this (not that it was ever expected), thanks to Outdoor 3 and 10 for example.

I'm a little busy today and will post results later this week (besides, for some levels I just saved one lemming even though you can clearly do better, so there's still plenty work left result-wise).

[Clam]

Next random L2 tribe: Medieval.

4: 2. One surfer, plus one more by stacking over the wall.
7: 1, going over the top with a combination of the construction skills + jumper.
9: 60.
10: 60. This isn't difficult, and may be fun to figure out on your own http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Pole-vault the second lemming up. Make the first lemming rope up to the above platform, to a point just low enough so the crowd can't get up, and at as shallow an angle as possible (this makes it easier to release later). Float down and balloon across to the right area where the claw is. Glue once, then while on the glue bridge, stack for one brick (this turns the lem around) and bomb. To get out of the start area, stack for one brick at the top of the rope, then make the stacker pour before it turns around.

seriously I'm rolling dice to pick these tribes

[ccexplore]

I'm a little busy today and will post results later this week (besides, for some levels I just saved one lemming even though you can clearly do better, so there's still plenty work left result-wise).

Okay, here are my best results so far:

1: 60
2: 60
3: 14
4: 60
5: 60
6: 60
7: 60^(*?)
8: 1, 60*
9: 1, 60*
10: 5

Outdoor 8 and 9 uses crawling to save everyone.  For Outdoor 9 no-glitch, if builder able to get through the 4-pixel-thick platform is no-glitch, then I suspect the result should be 10, but I haven't bothered with that, so I just put the "1" result I had earlier this week for that level for now.

Outdoor 7 and 10 uses flinging physics.  In doing so we'd need to debate what aspects of it may be considered a glitch or not.  My current decision is as follows:

A) Flinging effectively "resetting" the fall distance of falling lemmings is not a glitch.  I feel this is same as a trampoline doing the same thing, or that you can assign floaters at the last moment and still have the lemming survive.  In a way, the main reason it feels strange in real-world physics (not that the game mechanis is all that realistic to start with) is because in real-world physics, most objects takes some time to reach terminal velocity, and that velocity is usually quite high.  This is of course completely opposite to how lemmings are depicted falling in the game.

B) Flinging drowning lemmings out of water (so they no longer drown) is not a glitch (although not featured in either Outdoor 7 or 10).  The game makes it clear that a drowning lemming is not certain doom until it truly goes underwater (and the lemmings counter goes down by 1).  In particular, the game actually forces you to assign skills like kayaker and surfer while the lemming is drowning.  So the fact that a lemming can go from drowning to not drowning is completely normal in Lemmings 2, so a fling having this ability is simply a logical outcome.

C) Flinging splatting lemmings, making them no longer splatting from fatal fall, is something I haven't decided yet whether is glitch or not.  Unlike the water case, the splatting case feels more like damage is being inflicted immediately, so it feels strange that a fling can somehow undo all that damage.  Indeed, the splat animation takes long enough that, you can create cases where you can hardly make out the lemming anymore visually, yet a fling will instantly undo all that disintegration, making it look like the lemming just reappears out of nowhere.

Outdoor 7 in particular, I find it not possible to avoid flinging splatting lemmings in order to save everyone.  You should still be able to save plenty though even if you discount the splatting ones.  Outdoor 10 barely works (as the attached screenshots show) without having to fling a splatting lemming.  If the whole idea of using fling to reset fall distance is not okay for you, then the results for Outdoor 7 and 10 would be 22 and 4.

My Outdoor 9 solution is basically adapted directly from my "6 skills for gold" solution posted a while back in one of the other L2 challenge threads.  So aside from the one screenshot depicting the undamaged solution, the rest are just screenshots from that old solution, and they depict exactly how to rope and shoot the arrow.

More details below:

Remember that with 2 lemmings close together, only 1 will be eaten by the frog allowing the other one to pass.  You can have a lemming flamethrow at nothing to put it close to the next lemming behind, and similarly with the platformer you have to assign before reaching the frog.  And of course the 2 jumpers and 1 hang glider each allows a lemming to pass the frog.  So a total of 14 lemmings.

The screenshots basically explain most of it.  To get a lemming out of the attractor's reach, just keep jumping him.  Later when releasing the crowd, first jump the attractor (who's now ahead of everyone), then jump him at the location with the low ceiling to make him go "oww" (and now behind everyone), then finally jump him while about halfway down the slope to merge him in with the crowd.

The reason you can't just fire the bazooka earlier to avoid flinging splatting lemmings, is because some of the lemmings higher in the fall, will get flung into overhead terrain and fail to make it to where we want them to go.  If you look at screenshot H you can see how close some of the lemmings are to getting snagged by terrain overhead.

First lemming make it runner, and he will eventually make it to the bottom of the level where he can platform over the gap.  Second lemming can hop to get to where we want it to be as depicted in screenshot A.  He then jump left to reach the steel structure with the water, and then bomb to fling 2 falling lemmings to safety.  The screenshots depict how close one of the lemming is to hitting ground before the flinging occurs.  If we bomb earlier, then the other lemming is too high to feel the explosion and won't get flung.

Finally, save one more lemming using the remaining platformer and jumper, as depicted in screenshot D.

It shouldn't be hard to work out how to save 4 lemmings if you are not allowed to use flinging to reset fall distances.