Undamaged Levels (ONML etc.)

[ccexplore]

I feel I should mention that a lot of the 100% solutions I've been reporting with glitches (particularly the reset bomber glitch) while most of those levels are possible within their regular save % range without glitches. Idk how you're doing it in the other games but I suppose if you wanted to stress the idea of the challenge; glitch free then we should come up with some way of indicating these levels are still possible "undamaged" non-glitch. Maybe just make another indicator mark for that or something.

I think 10-6 was the only result you reported where you explicitly say that glitches are only required for 100% solution (aka "glitch for 100%").  Let me know if there are other results like that.

The existing system actually already indicates such results, although admittedly I probably need a better explanation in the post.  When the asterisk is over the level itself, it means that you need glitches just to meet the challenge without worrying about 100%.  Whereas if the asterisk is only over the 100%, it means you need glitches only for the 100% result.  See how I notated your 10-6 result for example.

I will add a sentence or two in the OP to better explain this.

[Luis]

I was wondering do all those glitches work on the SNES version?

[mobius]

I just improved 11-2 to 100% without any glitches.

I just looked over the levels I reported and I don't think there are any others that I labeled incorrectly regarding the glitches.

there was something else I wanted to say and of course I forget... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

I was wondering do all those glitches work on the SNES version?

If you mean what me and ccexplore were talking about we're talking about Lemmings Revolution. Unless there was a SNES version of Revolution I don't know about  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />
If you meant in the original; in general the glitches are varied between all the versions. I haven't looked at that version at all except on youtube and from that I gather SNES is very similar to Genesis.

[ccexplore]

I was wondering do all those glitches work on the SNES version?

A good number of glitches in DOS Lemmings do carry over to the SNES, including the sliding glitch, stuck climber glitch, blocker pushing lemmings into/through walls, steel destruction glitches, blocker canceling steel and traps, etc.  However, I don't have a definitive list at the moment as to exactly which glitches work and which doesn't.

There are also some very significant differences between SENS and DOS Lemmings:  direct drop doesn't work on SNES, you can't change release rate while game is paused on SNES, the timer runs out faster in SNES (I think 15 or 16 frames per game second) relative to DOS (17), etc.  There are also more subtle differences like how terrain is removed by miner, and how a bash stroke on SNES takes out one more column of pixels than DOS.

Because of these and other differences, I always insist on keeping separate records for each version of Lemmings, especially since with challenge solutions they can often be very sensitive to the subtlest of game-mechanics differences.

I think most of the DOS Lemmings results for undamaged should carry over to SNES.  If I have time I can take a look and see whether there are any differences worth noting on this thread.  I might also see if I can verify a few of the DOS glitch solutions on SNES.

[ccexplore]

Blizzard 13 improved to 100%.

================

Switching gears, I started looking into Lemmings 2.  I suspect it might be fruitful for this challenge given some of the obvious glitches that are very useful for the challenge (*cough* crawling *cough*).  Also, because that game doesn't really have the concept of minimum save requirement, I will simply list results in terms of maximum saved (out ot 60) without glitches, and maximum saved with glitches.

I started with the Classic tribe and got the following results (* means using glitches):

2: 59, 60*
3: 4
4: 2, 8*
6: 4, 8*
10: 2, 60*

Screenshots attached and details below:

The key glitch here is to lower yourself 3 pixels below the steel surface before starting to build across the gap from the left.  This is possible by first assigning digger.  This brings you down one pixel.  Then assign miner, and finally assign the builder only just one frame before the miner executes the second stroke (ie. when axe starts swinging down).  This brings you down 2 more pixels.  We are taking advantage of the digger and miner basically being forgiving about a small amount of steel while still moving the lemming downwards.  (So no, you can't try to use this glitch consecutively to get further down into the steel.)

So build two times from the left side, then climb and build to reach the ceiling route, and then once you're on the right side, build once.  With the left-side bridges lowered and stretched, it will just barely connect with the right-side bridge, so that your hero lemming doesn't fall off and drown after finishing the right-side bridge.  You need the remaining 2 builders to release the crowd.

The no-glitch solution is basically the same, except since you can't lower the left-side bridges, the two bridges don't quite connect and so your hero lemming dies.

Classic 3 is obviously just saving the climbers.  You just don't have enough skills to do any better, glitches or not.

You use up all 3 builders to establish the route to the exit.  Without glitches, you basically can only save the 2 climbers.  To save more, put a blocker exactly halfway of the / slope.  This sets up a one-way blocker that allows lemmings from the entrance to past through the blocker from the left, but can't escape the blocker from its right.  This will end up compressing the crowd into 8 distinct positions between the blocker and the steel wall.  With 60 lemmings, this means you have a compressed group of 8 lemmings.  You can then have the group block as they approach each of the 2 steel walls, triggering crawling for the remaining lemmings of the group.  This lets you save 8-2 = 6 more.

See the screenshots to find out where to build, in particular how to create a safe landing at the drop before the exit, using 2 builders + 1 digger to turn around, and 1 more builder to actually lower the fall.

Without glitches, once again you can basically only save the climbers.  With glitches, as seen in the screenshot, you can place a blocker near the wall to trigger nearby lemmings (squeezed between the blocker and the wall) to crawl.  On my try I got 4 crawlers, but I suspect 5 may be possible.

Without glitches you, once again, can only save the 2 climbers.  The glitch here is again using a blocker to trigger crawling, as seen in the screenshots.  Since the blocker has to be freed, you must place him on a builder's brick, exactly as positioned in the screenshots.  Furthermore, because DOS Lemmings 2 lack priority inversion and favors earlier lemmings instead of later ones, you need to be very careful so that when it comes time to free the blocker, your lemming can actually receive the skill assignment needed for that.

The way I did it is to visually "mark" the 1st lemming out by assigning him floater.  The 2nd lemming is the blocker.  I then carefully time when to build the bridge to lead everyone past the blocker, so that the 1st lemming out is the last one to go off the bridge after everyone else has started crawling.  1st lemming having priority over your blocker (2nd lemming), you can then easily assign 1st lemming digger to clear the build brick and free the blocker.  They both can then climb to exit.

[ccexplore]

I've just found a result not-yet-reported for one of the Xmas levels.   Not only is the solution a result for this challenge thread, but the very same solution also improves the reported result on 5 other existing challenge threads!  (Granted, some of the threads have a great deal of overlap.)  What's truly bizarre though, is how this solution hadn't been found or reported all this time until now.  It is pretty much within the ability of anyone here to find the solution, no glitches are used and no precision moves needed.  Even the concept behind it I'm sure has been seen in many other levels.

So, let's see who's the first person to figure out which level I'm talking about. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Ok, it's been about a week and interest has died down anyway. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> Time for the reveal.

As hinted by my wording in the post, the answer is:  Frost 6 "The Land of the Bizarre".  The improvement?  Somehow we all got fooled all this time into thinking the bomber must be used.  See attached Lemmix replay for why that's not true, and get ready for some forehead-slapping. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

This new improvement also applies to the following 5 challenges:

What skills can't you live without?
What is the minimum number of skills needed to beat each level?
What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge
Fewest different skills levels can be beaten with

[mobius]

wow improvement to 6 challenges all at one time http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

in Revolution; 11-6 T is for Teamwork, possible 100% no glitches.

the right lemmings should build twice somewhere over the retractable floor so he will be trapped. The left one will walk past a small gap with a break-away floor, then build to turn around after the switch so he flips it, then build over the gap where the weasel will fall. Then let him fall into the steel area and build to the high switch to flip it then let him be trapped in that area.

Go back to the right one who is now fallen into the area next to the empty pool make him a climber (when he's facing right) and he'll go into the pool and fall through a hidden hole. He should fall through open doors and be going to the left toward the balloon. Build over the tiny crack. Let him go upside down then fall through the next crack. Build him near the wall to the right so he doesn't climb it. He'll turn around and eventually go into the teleport. From there make him build two times; to the exit wall and when he turns around toward the teleport again. (or you can build just enough so he stops and is able to climb to the exit).

The left lemming now has a free way to the exit. make him a climber and build over the switch gap near the weasel. When he goes through the other teleport build over the gap near the steps and now open door. The only thing left to do is build once to avoid the same climb in that area.

I'm beginning to think my game is glitchy for either of the following reasons;
A. Windows 7
B. Guy's patch
C. My messing around in attempt to get Guy's patch working and other attempted tinkering I was doing.

Mainly because I'm having glitches that I never experienced before when I played the game on my older computers. Really weird stuff like lemmings and weasels just vanishing, lemmings walking on air and other random things. That's why i didn't put this in the glitches thread.

[Clam]

Switching gears, I started looking into Lemmings 2.  I suspect it might be fruitful for this challenge given some of the obvious glitches that are very useful for the challenge (*cough* crawling *cough*).  Also, because that game doesn't really have the concept of minimum save requirement, I will simply list results in terms of maximum saved (out ot 60) without glitches, and maximum saved with glitches.

Does this mean we still score out of 60 for levels where you can't legitimately start with 60 (ie. use L2-Fix's Cheat Mode)? This would be my preference actually, to avoid confusion. Also, I might actually participate in the L2 challenge for once http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />


Good find on Frost 6. I guess we all had a bizzare case of communal Lemmings-tunnel-vision http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

I'm beginning to think my game is glitchy for either of the following reasons;
A. Windows 7
B. Guy's patch
C. My messing around in attempt to get Guy's patch working and other attempted tinkering I was doing.

Mainly because I'm having glitches that I never experienced before when I played the game on my older computers. Really weird stuff like lemmings and weasels just vanishing, lemmings walking on air and other random things. That's why i didn't put this in the glitches thread.

It didn't seem that glitchy to me so far on my Win7 laptop with Guy's patch.  So it could be C, or your particular copy of the game, or something specific with your new computer?  Then again, I haven't really played the game long enough, especially since the time when I was actually into it back in December, I had to play it on XP since Guy's patch didn't exist yet.

===============================

Does this mean we still score out of 60 for levels where you can't legitimately start with 60 (ie. use L2-Fix's Cheat Mode)? This would be my preference actually, to avoid confusion. Also, I might actually participate in the L2 challenge for once http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Hmm, that aspect of the scoring did occur to me, but I thought I didn't have to make a decision right away until the respective tribes have been hit.  But my memory was bad, and I forgot until while writing this post that, in addition to Polar 8, Classic 5 also has lose 1 as the current maximum-saved record.

So it turns out I'm already scoring out of 60 for every level, even though I didn't think I have to consider that yet. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />  So there you go. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

But one thing I did intend to do from the outset is to add a footnote about this, no matter which way I decide.  Guess I need to do that now since it already matters.

[Clam]

Here's my attempt at the Beach Tribe (of course I'd go for that one first http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />)

1: 60.
2: 2. Pour from the exact spot shown in the first pic, in this order: glue, glue, sand. Then either glue again or laser blaster (using basher here removes some terrain) to stall until the sand settles to get you within the splat height. Roper up the umbrella to the exit. This saves both jetpackers.
3: 5. Stack arrows as shown in the second pic, jump across to the arrows (jump as late as possible or the lemming will disappear off the top), glue across, then jump/dive over the small gap in the platform. This way you can save everyone you can get across the first pool - 3 kayakers and 2 hang gliders.
4: 1 (just the kayaker).
5: 60. Just archer + build at the start, and build + glue to the exit.
8: 60.

The rest (6, 7, 9 and 10): none.

[ccexplore]

Before I continue, let me post a few links to some topics and posts on the forums that will be very helpful for Lemmings 2 challenges:

frame-stepping Lemmings 2 in DOSBox
Lemmings 2 glitches
http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=322.msg8242#msg8242" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">advanced fanning techniques (the post focused on ballooner, but some of the tips apply well to other fan-driven skills also)

====================

The rest (6, 7, 9 and 10): none.

I'm able to save 1 on 7, 9 and 10, although I ended up having to make use of a glitch on each one.

I need to head somewhere now, so I just attached zipped screenshots and have very brief descriptions below, which I may expand later if I have time.

A running jumper can, in certain specific cases, wind up a little inside the terrain as a result of the jump, which then triggers crawling to get him up the remaining small bits of height he can't otherwise make normally.

Use mortar explosions to fling a lemming up to the "flag" of the sandcastle terrain.  (Set up platformer platforms to create the targets for the mortar, so you won't damage level terrain.)  A roller can then get him up the very top tip of the castle, where you can stop the rolling by assigning him bazooka (which will not actually hit and destroy anything before going out of bounds).  The rest is pretty straightforward if a bit pixel-precise in places.  Finally, I still have to set up crawling (using the filler and my last platformer) to get up the giant clam, hence the solution using a glitch.

It's possible to get a Superlem past the handle of the bucket even though normally it would entail a lemming going off the top boundary of the level (because the highest part of the handle goes right up to the level's top boundary).  I believe what's happening is that the Superlem just moves too fast, and so from one frame to the next, it effectively "skips over" (which is why I see this as a glitch) the few terrain pixels of the handle at the top, and thus is able to get past the bucket that way.  The rest of the way is fairly standard Superlem navigation.

[Clam]

Now to my other favoured tribe (at least as far as level design), Egyptian. This isn't too exciting until the end http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />.

1, 2, 5, 8, 9: none.
4: 1 (superlem).
6: 60.
7: 2 (superlem, plus one more with the remaining skills)
10: 60*, see spoiler and attached screenshots. (Haven't attempted glitch-free yet)

Glue to close up the starting area, then build a holding pit using a sand pourer near the left wall, and then a glue pourer from as close to the wall as possible. Use a few more sand pourers to make the pile bigger, you need this later (see 1st screenshot). Now wait until all the lemmings are out, and have the last lemming mortar on the sand pile (2nd screenshot) to fling and compress the group. If this works right, you should now have 59 lemmings compressed into the space of two. The next bit is a little tricky - you need to use a glue pourer at the right time so that the group gets caught in the alcove at the end, triggering a crawl. For this you need the pourer lemming slightly ahead of the group. One way to do this is to use a hopper, then quickly switch to glue pourer and assign this as soon as the hopper lands after a single hop. The pourer should be placed as in the 3rd screenshot (actually slightly further back, it didn't quite work here). The remaining lemmings can be freed using the hopper-in-wall glitch (see L2 glitches topic, reply #3).

[ccexplore]

Nice job with Egyptian 10 and Beach 3. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> I didn't find a single improvement in Egyptian, most of the levels of that tribe are just too unfriendly for this challenge, with tons of terrain either surrounding the entrance area or the exit area. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

I'm going to put in a no-glitch result of 5 for now for Egyptian 10:

Once you reach the bottom-left exit of the pyramid, you can seal off the path to left level boundary with a bunch of sand pourers (about 5-7), and then a lemming is just a jump (using the shimmier as substitute jumper) and a rock climb away to get to the exit.  So all 5 rock climbers can be saved.

Right now it looks unlikely to me that you can do better than that for glitch-free, you'd need a bit more sand pourers than available to make a better no-glitch solution to work, I think.

Going back to Beach, I got a save-all, no-glitch solution for Beach 2.  You will find the advanced fanning techniques useful.

Use your jet packs to get a left-facing lemming to a particular part of the terrain sandcastle, then with some pixel-precision glue-pouring, you can actually use your 3 glues to reach all the way from the sandcastle to the beach umbrella before the exit.  Then just release the crowd with a roper.  The screenshots will show you all the details you need.

For the jet-packing, I recommend going the long way around, although the short way around is also possible but harder to achieve.

Beach 4 also looks like there's a possibility to save one or two more than just the kayaker, but it'll be tricky and requires dealing with the chain.  I'm going to take some rest now and tackle that some other time.

[Proxima]

If memory serves correctly, wasn't crawling deliberately put into the game, and therefore not a glitch?

[ccexplore]

If memory serves correctly, wasn't crawling deliberately put into the game, and therefore not a glitch?

Yeah, Mike Dailly did mention on the old old forums that it was programmed into the game because Lemmings get stuck too often, and characterized some of our "uses" of the behavior as more an abuse of intended behavior.

So I dunno, if people feel strongly about it I can adjust the results reporting accordingly.  I personally never care much for the glitch/no-glitch distinction because it's rather subjective, but it had come up enough places in various challenges and I can see why.  The kind of crawling being set up in L2 challenge solutions seems like the kind of thing that people who cares about glitch/no-glitch would be inclined to put into the former pile.