Suggestions for a new Cheapo Copycat game

[Essman]

Sounds excellent; how will this work with the musics, though? Will music data be entirely separate from style data? And how will this affect playing existing levels with the new game?

Music is still part of a style, so playing a level may require loading many styles at the same time. The music may be in one style, the objects may be in a different style, the characters may be in a different style, and the tools may be in yet another style.
Yes, the tools are now part of styles and can be customized. The only bad thing is that it will be way too complex for the average person to be able to make new tools, but if they know C++ and can make a DLL, then it's possible.

And the big question... I can't wait for this to be out; how long do you expect it to take?

Depends on how many features I put in the game before its first release. I'll give out the level editor first to people who want to help create styles, and that won't be too long from now. I don't want to name any dates because I can't guarantee completion by any time, external events may happen that delay the game.

[guest]

As far as I know, on the Mac version at least, one-way walls can explode from any position.

I have checked that the same is true in the PC version and the SNES version.

But I did some more careful testing as well, which I think revealed why Peter had the confusion with one-way walls (below are the notes I pre-typed before making this post):

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There is no inconsistency as far as one-way walls themselves are concerned.

But there is some "inconsistency" instead associated with steel areas.

One-way walls are always explodable.

However, there is a general interaction between steel areas and exploders.  Namely, the game takes a shortcut.  You might think that the game will actually mask out the exploder's bomb range area with the nearby steel areas, in order to prevent you from exploding steel.

Well, that's probably too slow to do for the PCs back then, so instead they did this (or at least that's what I believe they do):  when the exploder explodes, they check if it is standing on a steel area or not.  If yes, then they completely disable the taking out of terrain pixels when the exploder explodes.  On the other hand, if you are not standing on a steel area, all terrain pixels in the explosion area will be taken out, even those that are part of steel areas (the steel area status itself is still intact I think, just the corresponding terrain pixels are removed).

This leads to some remarkable effects.  Fire up Fun 11.

Try putting a stopper both on the right (next to the one-way wall's left side), and on the left (next to the vertical bar on the very left).  Now explode each stopper.  Notice that the exploders explode, but in both cases no terrain pixels whatsoever are taken out.  This shows that it is an effect of standing on a steel area, rather than any side effect of the one-way wall, since the left stopper is nowhere near the one-way wall, and yet his explosion is disabled just as the right one is.

But now, for more fun, try this:  make a lemming build just one step immediately left of the one-way wall.  Now put a stopper on top of that step.  Now explode it.  Because of that extra step, the stopper is no longer standing directly on steel, but instead got one pixel of vertical separation from the steel area.  That is enough to cause the game to apply the full destruction of the explosion to the surrounding area.  As a result, parts of the one-way wall got taken out, as well as even some of the steel-plate terrain piece.

So the question now is, should we fix the game mechanics so that terrain pixels in steel areas are properly protected from explosions (and conversely non-steel areas are not protected merely by having the exploder standing on steel), or should Cheapo employ the same shortcut PC Lemmings took (if it hasn't done so already), and accept all the resulting inconsistencies?

It is interesting to note that although it is conceptually a bug, it seems clear that the programmer intentionally decided to make things work the way it does, as I said probably for efficiency reasons.  So it's even debatable whether to really call it a programming "error" or not.

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If other versions of the original don't allow one-way walls to explode, maybe you should consider having two types of one-way wall, one explodable and one not.

Well, I've just seen that 2 other versions also behave identically as the Mac, so this is not an issue.  I'd definitely shy away from having multiple types of one-way walls, it just gets too confusing for the average player.

[Proxima]

Well, I've just seen that 2 other versions also behave identically as the Mac, so this is not an issue.  I'd definitely shy away from having multiple types of one-way walls, it just gets too confusing for the average player.

Sure; I just meant if other versions had non-explodable one-way walls, which I wasn't in a position to know about. If they don't, fine.

So the question now is, should we fix the game mechanics so that terrain pixels in steel areas are properly protected from explosions (and conversely non-steel areas are not protected merely by having the exploder standing on steel), or should Cheapo employ the same shortcut PC Lemmings took (if it hasn't done so already), and accept all the resulting inconsistencies?

It is interesting to note that although it is conceptually a bug, it seems clear that the programmer intentionally decided to make things work the way it does, as I said probably for efficiency reasons. &#A0;So it's even debatable whether to really call it a programming "error" or not.

Well, it's clearly some kind of error; the manual clearly states that steel is not explodable. More to the point, both players and level designers regard steel as non-explodable, and existing levels could be ruined if it's possible to explode steel by exploiting this bug.

You could argue that it would be interesting to make levels that depend on exploiting this bug. But, by its nature -- it depends on a fact that isn't at all obvious from the nature of the skills or the objects -- it would be distinctly unfair on the player to make him guess something like this, and not at all in the spirit of Lemmings.

I definitely think steel on the new Cheapo should be once-and-for-all unexplodable.

- - -

On another note, I had a couple more suggestions but I forgot what they were.

[namida]

(Is it just me being paranoid, or can The Parking Lot in L+2 only be solved by exploiting this?)

It's just you. The Parking Lot can be solved without any bugs being exploited. It's just a matter of timing.

[guest]

You could argue that it would be interesting to make levels that depend on exploiting this bug. But, by its nature -- it depends on a fact that isn't at all obvious from the nature of the skills or the objects -- it would be distinctly unfair on the player to make him guess something like this, and not at all in the spirit of Lemmings.

Actually, I think in the case of exploding steel, I believe I might've already seen one or two CustLemm levels with intended solutions that exploit this feature.

Of course, that hardly means we have to keep this legacy of programming laziness for Cheapo.  Although I won't go as far as to invoke the "spirit of Lemmings" in the argument...it means different things to different people anyway.  

[Proxima]

It's just you. The Parking Lot can be solved without any bugs being exploited. It's just a matter of timing.

Actually, I've just solved it! Sorry for doubting you.........

Although I won't go as far as to invoke the "spirit of Lemmings" in the argument...it means different things to different people anyway.  

I'm not sure. What I meant by it is clearly stated in the words on the scroll at the bottom of the main screen: "Remember: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"

[piainp2]

10. There's a bug in the replay that will cause a bridge to be built a few pixels away from the correct place. (Is it just me being paranoid, or can The Parking Lot in L+2 only be solved by exploiting this?)

Going off topic a bit; I found The Parking Lot a piece of cake. I didn't use that 'bridge buiding a few pixels away trick'. One of my levels is also a cheapo remake of level 3 fun. so I guess I knew part of the solution already.

[Proxima]

One of my levels is also a cheapo remake of level 3 fun. so I guess I knew part of the solution already.

Nearly the same for me; one of my ResEdit levels is a clone of 3 Fun. But even if it hadn't been, the solution is completely obvious; it's just timing it right, as Steaver just said, that's hard.

[lemming_20]

Hi all!Do your remember me? I'm juanjo el Lemming, the creator of some styles for cheapo: Galaxy Lemmings, War Lemmings, Fantasy Lemmings, Machine Lemmings...
I haven't played lemmings for a long time now but I plan to return ^^
I have a question. Which will be the computer requeriments for the new game? I plan to create new styles and levels for it.  

[Essman]

I have a question. Which will be the computer requeriments for the new game? I plan to create new styles and levels for it.  

It's hard for me to judge what the real minimum requirements are because I develop the game on a 3Ghz machine with 1GB of RAM and 128MB 3D accelerated video card. When I first started developing the game, I had an 800Mhz computer with a 32MB 3D video card. So I'll call that the minimum requirements. Although my laptop has 16MB of video memory and it runs fine there.

I know that not everyone has the bucks to spend on fancy new computers, but the requirements are not beyond any hardware that could've been bought in the last few years.

So, minimum:
800Mhz CPU, 16-32MB 3D accelerated video card, 128MB of RAM.

The requirements might be less, but I have no way of testing that out yet. The most important piece is the video card since that has to render the whole screen at 30 or 60 frames per second and store all the graphics in video memory. The game isn't 3D, but a 3D accelerated card helps with graphic effects.

[guest]

So, minimum:
800Mhz CPU, 16-32MB 3D accelerated video card, 128MB of RAM.

The requirements might be less, but I have no way of testing that out yet. The most important piece is the video card since that has to render the whole screen at 30 or 60 frames per second and store all the graphics in video memory. The game isn't 3D, but a 3D accelerated card helps with graphic effects.

Wouldn't it be better if there's a way for the user to turn on/off graphics effects that requires 3D acceleration?  It wouldn't look as good with the effects turned off of course, but at least it wouldn't shut out those who still has old hardware.

Then again, only fairly old computers will run into this issue.  Anyone's who plays relatively recent computer games pretty much has to have a 3D accelerated card anyway.  

[Essman]

Wouldn't it be better if there's a way for the user to turn on/off graphics effects that requires 3D acceleration?  It wouldn't look as good with the effects turned off of course, but at least it wouldn't shut out those who still has old hardware.

Eh, I'm not too worried about it. When I say "effects" I really mean very simple things like zooming in/out, and transparency. That stuff is "free" when 3D acceleration is used to simulate 2D graphics.

Then again, only fairly old computers will run into this issue.  Anyone's who plays relatively recent computer games pretty much has to have a 3D accelerated card anyway.  

Agreed.

[DragonsLover]

So, minimum:
800Mhz CPU, 16-32MB 3D accelerated video card, 128MB of RAM.

What? My compu will not be enough powerful to run the new game! I have 600Mhz!

The requirements might be less, but I have no way of testing that out yet.

I hope you're right! I could test it because I guess that I've the less powerful computer.

[Adam]

What? My compu will not be enough powerful to run the new game! I have 600Mhz!


I hope you're right! I could test it because I guess that I've the less powerful computer.

Unfortunately he forgot to mention it will require Windows XP

[Essman]

Unfortunately he forgot to mention it will require Windows XP

Windows 2000, XP, or 2003 is required.