Suggestions for a new Cheapo Copycat game

[DragonsLover]

What do you want more in Cheapo Copycat? Is there some things that you don't like in Cheapo Copycat and that you want to see in a new Cheapo Copycat? Post your comments here! Peter, please read this!

For me, I would like to put a blank square in each small window of the numbers in the toolboxes when there's no tools left like in the original Dos lemmings. That way, we can see easily which tools we have and which ones we haven't. Also, if we'll see 00 in the window of the numbers, we'll know that there's 100 tools or 200 tools and not 00!

Also, the editor is fine but if only it could have an UNDO command! That would be better!

Another thing that would be great: A different sound for each tool, like in Lemmings 2 or Lemmings 3D. E.g: You select Climbers and a voice says: Climbers! Same thing for each tools!

Also, instead of creating a .stt file, have the possibility to choose songs, musics and images directly in the editor or create a library of the elements. E.g: A folder containing all musics, a folder for graphics, another folder for sounds... Because it's bad to change a small little thing in a style to create a new one. This is the case of each Lemmus styles of Steaver where he only changed the songs by creating a new style... With my method, just choose the song you want for the level in the library and that's all, don't need to change any style file neither creating them! That way, too, we could create multiple lemmings styles. Tell me what you think about this!

Add drawing tools in the editor, like the selection-box to "cut" graphics and move them. Put a hand to "move" entirely the level. Change the size of the grid and put an universal one. Like in Dos lemmings, put a Z coordinate to tell if the graphic part is in front or in back of another one. Make the possibility to put graphic parts in black and transform them in erasers...

Finally, I hope that there'll be no blurry graphics anymore!!! And I hope too that the midis will be ok too (because for me, some instruments can play badly or can even play a higher note than the original one, it this happen to you sometimes?).

I guess that's all! It's your turn now!

[Proxima]

Oh, I have LOTS of ideas!!!

1. By far the most important! When closing the editor, it should give you the option to SAVE in case you've forgotten!!!

2. The editor should warn if you've selected a music that doesn't exist -- this will cause the game to crash.

3. I agree with a blank rather than 0 to show zero tools (and blank rather than 0 before a single digit). Perhaps it shouldn't allow more than 99 of a tool, since the game can't display this.....?

4. Allow multiple folders for levels. It gets annoying when you have lots of your own levels and have to browse through them every time you want to load one.......

5. The "Dirt" style should look like the Dirt style on the real game, which is much more attractive. Likewise with the Fire and Blue styles -- the exit and "water" on Cheapo Fire are really annoying.

6. One-way walls should be able to be exploded. (Sorry, this really annoys me... it ruined one of my best levels)

7. The editor should warn or even disallow level names beyond 42 characters (they won't display). And we want hyphens!

8. The thing for recording best and fastest solution to each level is dead neat -- why doesn't it work?

9. I hate to say this, but I'd rather get rid of some of the bugs that allow "trick" solutions. I don't enjoy levels that depend on tricks, and if they wouldn't have been possible in the original then I don't think they're fair.

10. There's a bug in the replay that will cause a bridge to be built a few pixels away from the correct place. (Is it just me being paranoid, or can The Parking Lot in L+2 only be solved by exploiting this?)

11. When release rate is changed, the change should only affect things from the entrance of the next Lemming (like on the original game).

12. The "poetry" offered on completion or failure of a level annoys me, especially the misuse of "it's" for "its". Level designers should be able to write their own completion/failure messages.

13. In fact, I don't like the background images of the completion/failure screen (on the standard styles) either.

14. I think a voice saying "Climbers" when you select climbers would be a bit annoying -- a different note of the scale for each tool, like on Mac Lemmings, would be groovy.

15. Could we allow sets to be "linked", like on the original where completing the last level of Fun brings up the first level of Tricky?

I think that's all at the moment...........

[guest]

What do you want more in Cheapo Copycat? Is there some things that you don't like in Cheapo Copycat and that you want to see in a new Cheapo Copycat? Post your comments here! Peter, please read this!

I need clarification.  Are you saying you're Peter Spada or otherwise have access to Cheapo's source code?  Or are you merely gathering suggestions to be passed off to Peter Spada for consideration?

Also, if we'll see 00 in the window of the numbers, we'll know that there's 100 tools or 200 tools and not 00

Wouldn't a better solution be to actually allow 3-digit number of tools to be displayed properly?  ::

And I hope too that the midis will be ok too (because for me, some instruments can play badly or can even play a higher note than the original one, it this happen to you sometimes?).

I have some knowledge about MIDIs and I can tell you the best Peter can do is to give you MIDIs that manage to work okay on your particular computer.  But there's really no good way to guarantee that a particular MIDI will sound fine on everyone's computer.   MIDI is really just an electronic sheet music notation; just as you'll get different results having a piece of music played by your local high school orchestra vs. the Vienna Philharmonic, how the MIDI comes out will depend heavily on your sound card (more technically, your computer's MIDI synthesizer).  I have in fact even encountered certain MIDI synthesizers that for certain instruments uses pitches off by an octave or so.

Of course, if the problems turn out to be in the actual programming in Cheapo that plays back MIDIs, that would be something Peter could fix.  But it would be hard to fix if it's something that only happens on your particular computer and not someone else's.

Frankly I'm not too crazy about the default set of music that comes with Cheapo anyway.  

[guest]

I need clarification. &#A0;Are you saying you're Peter Spada or otherwise have access to Cheapo's source code? &#A0;Or are you merely gathering suggestions to be passed off to Peter Spada for consideration?

Ok that was dumb, now that I finally see the part where DragonsLover said " Peter please read this!"  X_X

I think rather than counting on Peter to read this, someone should try to e-mail him directly with the suggestions once they have been gathered.  Isn't there an e-mail address mentioned somewhere in the docs that come with Cheapo?  (Of course, whether the e-mail address is still current is probably another matter altogether.)

[Essman]

No need to email me the list of suggestions. I'm looking over this list and will have an answer for every suggestion soon.

All I will say right now is that even though I have the source code for the two existing clone games, I will not be updating them for bug fixes (yes, there are lots of bugs and complaints). Instead I will release a new editor and game in the future when it is complete.

[Essman]

I never wanted to talk much about the new clone game I've been working on, just in case I take too long to finish it. But maybe talking about it a little will inspire me to work faster on it...

In reply to DragonsLover:

For me, I would like to put a blank square in each small window of the numbers in the toolboxes when there's no tools left like in the original Dos lemmings. That way, we can see easily which tools we have and which ones we haven't. Also, if we'll see 00 in the window of the numbers, we'll know that there's 100 tools or 200 tools and not 00!

I agree, the numbers will disappear when you can't use a tool.

Also, the editor is fine but if only it could have an UNDO command! That would be better!

The new editor will certainly have unlimited undo commands. Well, not unlimited, but a heck of a lot of undos (and redo).

Another thing that would be great: A different sound for each tool, like in Lemmings 2 or Lemmings 3D. E.g: You select Climbers and a voice says: Climbers! Same thing for each tools!

I'm not so sure about that one. You surely don't want to hear my voice whenever you click on a tool. I might ask for help making NEW sound effects in the future, because I'm not going to use anything from the lemmings games. That doesn't mean that you won't be able to control lemmings, somebody out there will build a lemming style.

Also, instead of creating a .stt file, have the possibility to choose songs, musics and images directly in the editor or create a library of the elements. E.g: A folder containing all musics, a folder for graphics, another folder for sounds... Because it's bad to change a small little thing in a style to create a new one. This is the case of each Lemmus styles of Steaver where he only changed the songs by creating a new style... With my method, just choose the song you want for the level in the library and that's all, don't need to change any style file neither creating them! That way, too, we could create multiple lemmings styles. Tell me what you think about this!

I have the editor practically complete and here's how styles work: You build a style completely in the level editor using dialogs (no more typing text files). And the level editor does not limit you to use a single style when making a level. You can associate a password with your styles so that nobody else can use them, or you can allow people to use them, but not modify them.
By the way, you won't have deal with making "metal boxes" anymore, and the one-way arrows actually animate.

Add drawing tools in the editor, like the selection-box to "cut" graphics and move them. Put a hand to "move" entirely the level. Change the size of the grid and put an universal one. Like in Dos lemmings, put a Z coordinate to tell if the graphic part is in front or in back of another one. Make the possibility to put graphic parts in black and transform them in erasers...

Cut and paste is there (just like it was in the existing game). As for transforming any graphic into an eraser, I never thought of that, but it is a good idea. I'll add it.

Finally, I hope that there'll be no blurry graphics anymore!!! And I hope too that the midis will be ok too (because for me, some instruments can play badly or can even play a higher note than the original one, it this happen to you sometimes?).

There are no more blurry graphics, and the midi should be better.

[Essman]

In reply to Ahribar\s many numbered comments (keep scrolling up to read the original comment, I\m not quoting them here).

1. Yes, the new editor asks you to save if you modified the level. And you can have multiple modified levels open at the same time.

2. Since the new editor and game do not use any code from the older game, any old bugs won\t exist anymore. Instead there will be new bugs since the code is new. Any bugs that still exist will be purely coincidental.

3. Right, no more than 99 of a tool.

4. There is no limitation for where level files can exist now. You can open them from anywhere on disk.

5. I\m not going to take graphics from the lemmings game. I\ll make my own style and rely on others to make the rest. As for the annoying graphics in the previous clone, I never claimed to be a fantastic graphic artist.

6. One-way walls cannot be exploded anymore.

7. Level names can now contain any standard keyboard symbols.

8. I got "caught" before I was able to finish the game, so my ideas for keeping high scores never got finished. But those features will probably exist in a new game.

9 and 10. Like I said before, old bugs won\t exist anymore.

11. I don\t know about this, because I don\t understand what is wrong.
 
12. Just ignore the "poetry".
 
13. There will be different background images, but I don\t think my art design skills have magically become better. You'll be able to select custom backgrounds though.
 
15. Good idea about linking sets of levels, I\ll add that.

[Proxima]

Hi, good to see you!

Hope the tone of my comments didn't offend you; I hadn't realised you were a member of the board. (That is, I knew Essman was, but didn't realise Essman and Peter were the same.)

Some replies to your replies:

5. You could always ask other people to help with the graphics. I really REALLY hate the exit on the Fire style.

6. I meant that one-way walls should be able to be exploded (because they can on the original game, and this is a clone, right?)

11. Same: what's "wrong" is a difference from the original game. I think the gameplay elements should be as close to the original as possible.

12. I can live with the poetry (though I hope you'll correct that "it's"), but it would still be nice to be able to write my own completion messages.

13. I think something really simple like a wallpaper-pattern type thing would work best; that wouldn't be too hard to do.

14. No comment? I thought this was a good idea......

And two more suggestions: a sketch for the highest step a lemming can ascend without a climber. This would have saved me so much time on many of my levels........

Also, if there isn't already, there should be a way, when editing a level, to remind yourself which style it was created with. And maybe to change a level from one style to another if the graphics of the two styles are the same.

[Essman]

5. You could always ask other people to help with the graphics. I really REALLY hate the exit on the Fire style.

Once I finish the programming I'll ask for help making new styles.

6. I meant that one-way walls should be able to be exploded (because they can on the original game, and this is a clone, right?)

Whatever is correct, that's how the game will work. I'll go back to the original games and see how the one-way arrows react to bombs. If the original game acted buggy, then I won't copy it. For example, if the one-way arrows explode if you stand next to them, but not when you stand on them, then that's a bug in their design.

11. Same: what's "wrong" is a difference from the original game. I think the gameplay elements should be as close to the original as possible.

Right, but if you don't exactly explain what this difference is, I won't know how to fix it.

12. I can live with the poetry (though I hope you'll correct that "it's"), but it would still be nice to be able to write my own completion messages.

Those same win/lose messages won't exist, and they will be customizable.

And two more suggestions: a sketch for the highest step a lemming can ascend without a climber. This would have saved me so much time on many of my levels........

That will be added.

Also, if there isn't already, there should be a way, when editing a level, to remind yourself which style it was created with. And maybe to change a level from one style to another if the graphics of the two styles are the same.

You will be able to switch between styles at will, no limitations. That doesn't mean that the entrances and exits will change to the new style. That just means that you can use objects and graphics from other styles.
The most recent style used when editing a level will be remembered, so the most common scenario of using a single style per level will work great.

[guest]

How about a sketch for the area taken out by a bomb explosion?

There is also a possible use for a miner's tunnel sketch, though it's not essential.

[guest]

8. I got "caught" before I was able to finish the game, so my ideas for keeping high scores never got finished. But those features will probably exist in a new game.

I thought it's interesting to note that a scoring formula for Lemmings 1 is already out there:  the Super Nintendo version of Lemmings (the one released by Sunsoft) calculate scores for your efforts on each level.  Although it doesn't total up the scores or even keep track of high scores, the scoring formula itself is pretty good I think:  

100 * percent saved (0 to 100) + 10 * number of skills (of any kind) left over.

Generally speaking, this pushes for you to get as many lemmings saved as possible, and then to push you for using as few skills as possible.  Technically the formula doesn't work complete that way:  in effect it allows you to trade in the lifes of 1% of Lemmings per 10 skills saved.  You can fix this by weighing the percent saved higher, although in typical levels, you still do much better by getting more Lemming saved rather than being frugal with skills, because of the general nature of the game (where a few does the work to save the rest).

The formula doesn't account for time (how fast you get all the Lemmings in).  If you want to use a formula that does, I'd suggest weighing it lower than percent saved and skills left over.

Anyway, just an idea.  There are many other ways to consider scoring.  You can for example keep each of the 3 statistics mentioned above separately.

[Proxima]

Whatever is correct, that's how the game will work. I'll go back to the original games and see how the one-way arrows react to bombs. If the original game acted buggy, then I won't copy it. For example, if the one-way arrows explode if you stand next to them, but not when you stand on them, then that's a bug in their design.

On 18 Taxing (Tribute to M C Escher) I solved it by building to the top of the one-way wall then blowing off the top-right corner to make the fall survivable. One of my created levels on the Mac, a clone of 8 Mayhem (Last one out is a rotten egg) with different skill allocation, uses this method to descend a very large one-way wall, using bombs both from above and from the side. As far as I know, on the Mac version at least, one-way walls can explode from any position.

If other versions of the original don't allow one-way walls to explode, maybe you should consider having two types of one-way wall, one explodable and one not.

Right, but if you don't exactly explain what this difference is, I won't know how to fix it.

I thought I had, but I probably wasn't being clear enough. In the original, if you increase the release rate from 1 to 99, the next lemming still comes out exactly two seconds after the one before, but as soon as he's out they flood out at 99.

[Proxima]

100 * percent saved (0 to 100) + 10 * number of skills (of any kind) left over.

Very interesting. Two other things that could be factored in are perfection (the scoring difference between 100% and 99% should be much greater than that between 99% and 98%) and difficulty (having lots of skills left over shouldn't score very highly if you're given 20 of each to begin with, as on most Fun levels).

This would require that the level designer specify how highly skills left over should count on a specific level -- and perhaps also what he considers the highest percentage it's possible to save. You'd have to have default values for these, of course, or already made levels wouldn't work on the new game.

[Proxima]

You will be able to switch between styles at will, no limitations. That doesn't mean that the entrances and exits will change to the new style. That just means that you can use objects and graphics from other styles.
The most recent style used when editing a level will be remembered, so the most common scenario of using a single style per level will work great.

Sounds excellent; how will this work with the musics, though? Will music data be entirely separate from style data? And how will this affect playing existing levels with the new game?

And the big question... I can't wait for this to be out; how long do you expect it to take?

[Essman]

If other versions of the original don't allow one-way walls to explode, maybe you should consider having two types of one-way wall, one explodable and one not.

I'll play around with the original game and figure it out. Having a choice might be good, regardless of what the original game did.

Very interesting. Two other things that could be factored in are perfection (the scoring difference between 100% and 99% should be much greater than that between 99% and 98%) and difficulty (having lots of skills left over shouldn't score very highly if you're given 20 of each to begin with, as on most Fun levels).

Currently I think there will be three scores per level:
1) Time left on the clock
2) Percent saved
3) A score based on a formula

This would require that the level designer specify how highly skills left over should count on a specific level -- and perhaps also what he considers the highest percentage it's possible to save. You'd have to have default values for these, of course, or already made levels wouldn't work on the new game.

There will be a default formula. I'm thinking of letting the level author type in a completely new formula for their levels.
For example: 10 * builders + 5 * blockers + 10 * saved + timeLeft