Suggestions for a new Cheapo Copycat game

[Proxima]

Well that's easy, make a "Paste Opaque" menu item under the "Edit" menu, right beneath the regular "Paste".

I don't agree; that wouldn't deal with placing terrain directly from the Add Graphic window in opaque mode. I suggest that "Draw Opaque" be a toggle command in the Edit menu.

[guest]

I don't agree; that wouldn't deal with placing terrain directly from the Add Graphic window in opaque mode.

Oh ok.  Well when you first described it you specifically said "if you copy and paste a rectangle".

[Proxima]

 Yeah, but it afterwards occurred to me that it would be neater to have it work for adding graphics in the first place as well.

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Another suggestion.

I think objects should have the possibility of going in three layers -- in front of everything, in front of terrain graphics but behind lemmings and bridges, and at the back. The point is that most often you don't want objects to appear in front of lemmings or bridges, and it's very annoying to place lots of objects in the wrong layer because you changed layer to make a small modification to the terrain and then have to change them all. But just sometimes you will want an object to appear in front of lemmings -- for instance, a "mist" harmless animation object.

[Jase]

Being a master player of the Lemmings game for Sega Master System and NES, I am reminded of some things I found quite good in that version which did not appear in other versions. Now if you think I'm going to navigate a humungous topic like this one, you're mistaken. So whether it's been said or not, here's my suggestions. And there's a few of them...
(some are complete nonsense but might be good for some thought)

- Customisable Stage Clear and Loading Stage screen - make it like how you can move objects around in a PowerPoint window.
- You can change the amount of clicks a builder makes. Eg, if you don't like how it was in the original Aimga version <3 clicks, you're out> you can change it to SMS style <4 clicks> or even No Clicks!
- Change whether or not your level set carries the same music in every level (Amiga) or the music is stored in a folder or something and chosen at random (Windows 95).
- None of this styles file nonsense. I looked on your site, and it's gonna be customisable with a GUI so no worries there.
- Be able to change the Lemmings fall resistance. In the NES version, in Tailor Made For Blockers, you can't do the three Blockers trick, you have to guide the Lemmings on EVERY SINGLE EFFING PLATFORM so that they don't splat on the ground. I'd like to make some levels that are like that, rather than having a high-up platform.
- No one is going to pay attention to this one. In the NES version and the GameBoy version, the Lemmings sprites were defined in little squares. That is, a Lemming would not do a skill until it fit into these invisible squares. So often they did the moves at the wrong time, or not at all. That was fun for some levels.
- And another dumb suggestion, but one to ponder over. In the NES version, the building is VERY steep. It goes up up up rather than up and across practically. Could there be a switch for this? lol
- Some incorporation for MOD music files. MIDI sounds very much bland and sterile. Let's get the old MOD files back in business! w00t!
- The Esc button restarts the level, like Lemmings 2: The Tribes.... oh by the way, incorporate Lemmings 2 skills, and I'll Bash you, Dig a hole, Block off on lookers and throw you in and let you Float gently into the ground. (Lemmings 2: The Useless)
- The Mini-Map actually lets you pick where to go! Pardon me if I am mistaken, but the Mini-Map in Cheapo does nothing. :S
- Make black in certain graphics walkable on! In one of Adam's SEGA levels, he had to make one of the graphics (a plug, in Sega Two) white. It just looked weird.
- Allow (just for twiddling's sake) the creator of a level to choose what part exactly of the Exit the Lemmings jump into. Sometimes, the Lemmings jump into the wall :S
- No more than 99 of a skill. No more than 100 Lemmings. :p
- Be able to set a background image for levels.
- As suggested, sounds when you click the skills buttons. Make it like Amiga's. That's fun, you could pause the game and "play the piano" lol.
- Customisable Opening Menu, in the PowerPoint "click, drag, 'n drop" style. So you could draw graphics in MS Paint or something, import them, and set them (with something similar to PowerPoint's action settings feature) to either bring up the Load Set/Level screen, configure Game Options, or Quit the game. etc.
- The Editor program doesn't hog the whole screen. Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but Cheapo editor grabs the whole screen and hides the Task Bar.

That's all
Jase

[Mindless]

- Customisable Stage Clear and Loading Stage screen - make it like how you can move objects around in a PowerPoint window.

Too complicated. Keep the intro and extro screens simple.

- Some incorporation for MOD music files. MIDI sounds very much bland and sterile. Let's get the old MOD files back in business! w00t!

This would be a nice feature.

- The Esc button restarts the level, like Lemmings 2: The Tribes....

This would also be handy.

- The Mini-Map actually lets you pick where to go! Pardon me if I am mistaken, but the Mini-Map in Cheapo does nothing. :S

It should do something...

- Make black in certain graphics walkable on! In one of Adam's SEGA levels, he had to make one of the graphics (a plug, in Sega Two) white. It just looked weird.

Dimwits needs transparency.

- Be able to set a background image for levels.

This would make levels look nicer, I think this was already planned to be implamented.

- The Editor program doesn't hog the whole screen. Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but Cheapo editor grabs the whole screen and hides the Task Bar.

This is annoying and should be changed.

---

All in all, these are nice suggestions, but are not necessities.

[guest]

- Customisable Stage Clear and Loading Stage screen - make it like how you can move objects around in a PowerPoint window.

That's rather vague, but I guess if all you mean are those slide-to-slide transitions available in PowerPoint, some subset of them can be done.  Anything more complicated would probably be more trouble than it's worth.

- You can change the amount of clicks a builder makes.

Interesting, I would've thought the number of clicks are standardized across versions, guess not.

Still, I far prefer the game to stick to 3 clicks consistently, otherwise it's just ungainful confusion for everyone.

What might be interesting though is to customize the "click" sound effect itself, although I think even the current version of Cheapo already supports this.

- Be able to change the Lemmings fall resistance. <snip> I'd like to make some levels that are like that, rather than having a high-up platform.

Again, I'm more for consistency when it comes to basic elements of game mechanics.  It's already bad enough that there are variations in the falling distances across the various versions of Lemmings 1, we don't need to have every level designer potentially coming up with their own version.

One possible compromise is to introduce new trap types which are activated when you fall down onto it, and only activated based on the falling distance.  For example I can imagine a hidden "springy floor" trap where if you fall from too high a height, it will bounce you back up with such speed the Lemming will splat when it hits the ceiling overhead.

- No one is going to pay attention to this one. In the NES version and the GameBoy version, the Lemmings sprites were defined in little squares. That is, a Lemming would not do a skill until it fit into these invisible squares. So often they did the moves at the wrong time, or not at all. That was fun for some levels.

You realize your last 2 statements are contradicting each other, right?  

My general impression is that most people actually hate this feature.  That being said, it might be fun to experiment around with this, but I'd insist that the "skill areas" be at least somewhat visible.  For example, if you click on one of the skills and there's a "skill area" for that skill somewhere in the level, it'll briefly highlight or flash the area so you know where exactly it is.

In the NES version, the building is VERY steep. It goes up up up rather than up and across practically. Could there be a switch for this?

No, but we can introduce this as a new skill.  Just like in Lemmings 2, the "scooper" is basically the same as a miner, except it goes at a steeper 45 degree angle.

- Some incorporation for MOD music files. MIDI sounds very much bland and sterile. Let's get the old MOD files back in business! w00t!

One advantage of MIDI, from Peter's point of view, is that it is easy to program because you basically get it for free (ie. in terms of programming effort) with Windows.  This is unfortunately not quite the case with MOD music.   That being said, I suppose Peter can at least make that part of the platform open, to allow for the possibility of people programming custom plug-ins for other music file formats.

Incidentally, I don't think MIDIs are that bad.  pretty much all of the Lemmings 1 music actually adapt quite well to MIDI, with maybe the exception of "Doggie" and some of the "special graphics level" music.

[guest]

- The Esc button restarts the level, like Lemmings 2

That is one of the more stupid things in Lemmings 2 actually.  It completely contradicts the meaning of "Escape", since you literally can never escape from the current level with that Esc key.  O_o

I'm quite happy with Ctrl+R for restart, though I do agree it's nice to have a way of restart that doesn't force you to go through the menu or level intro/preview screen.

.... oh by the way, incorporate Lemmings 2 skills, and I'll Bash you, Dig a hole, Block off on lookers and throw you in and let you Float gently into the ground. (Lemmings 2: The Useless)

I don't think Peter plans to provide any Lemmings 2 skills with the game itself, but he might open up the platform for people to create their own skills.

And while I agree many skills in Lemmings 2 are a bit frivolous, they are kinda fun, and more importantly, some of the Lemmings 2 skills are useful in their own rights.  The stacker and platformer for example I think are good complements to builders, just like how even in the original Lemmings you have 3 directions for excavation (horizontal, down, diagonally down).

- Make black in certain graphics walkable on! In one of Adam's SEGA levels, he had to make one of the graphics (a plug, in Sega Two) white. It just looked weird.

Actually, Adam just haven't thought this through.  A very very dark shade of any color can usually make a good substitute for black.  So blame Adam on picking white of all colors, which is as far away from black as you can get.  

That being said, since we are planning to allow backgrounds that aren't black, I agree there probably should be a way to allow black terrain pixels as well.

- Allow (just for twiddling's sake) the creator of a level to choose what part exactly of the Exit the Lemmings jump into. Sometimes, the Lemmings jump into the wall :S

I have never seen Lemmings jump into the wall to exit.

Again, I'm not particular enthusiastic about introducing variations on such a fundamental facet of gameplay.  Besides, you can always create your own exit object to accomplish what you suggested above.

- No more than 99 of a skill. No more than 100 Lemmings. :p

This is completely arbitrary, though it does make displaying the numbers more manageable since you know how much screen estate to reserve in advance.

I doubt most level designers will take advantage of such high numbers anyway.

- Customisable Opening Menu, in the PowerPoint "click, drag, 'n drop" style. So you could draw graphics in MS Paint or something, import them, and set them (with something similar to PowerPoint's action settings feature) to either bring up the Load Set/Level screen, configure Game Options, or Quit the game. etc.

This is too vague for anyone to understand what exactly you mean.  That being said, customizable clickable areas in an opening screen can certainly be supported, shall Peter choose to do so.

- The Editor program doesn't hog the whole screen. Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but Cheapo editor grabs the whole screen and hides the Task Bar.

I believe Peter already fixed this with the Dimwit editor.

[Essman]

One advantage of MIDI, from Peter's point of view, is that it is easy to program because you basically get it for free (ie. in terms of programming effort) with Windows. &#A0;This is unfortunately not quite the case with MOD music. &#A0; That being said, I suppose Peter can at least make that part of the platform open, to allow for the possibility of people programming custom plug-ins for other music file formats.

Incidentally, I don't think MIDIs are that bad. &#A0;pretty much all of the Lemmings 1 music actually adapt quite well to MIDI, with maybe the exception of "Doggie" and some of the "special graphics level" music.

Since I'm using DirectX (DirectMusic) this time, allowing MP3s should be as easy as MIDI. The support for MIDI has been complete, I need to look into loading MP3s. Forget MOD unless DirectMusic just happens to support it.

[guest]

Since I'm using DirectX (DirectMusic) this time, allowing MP3s should be as easy as MIDI. The support for MIDI has been complete, I need to look into loading MP3s.

Interesting.  If I'm reading you right, are you saying that Dimwit will play MIDIs through DirectMusic, as opposed to the traditional MCI/winmm functions Cheapo uses?

I could be kidding myself (I really need to read up on DirectMusic), but I think DirectMusic supports DLS which is sort of like soundfonts (ie. custom instrument sample libraries).  With the proper support from you (to specify the DLS to use), it might be possible to create MIDI+DLS combinations that are just as versatile as MODs.  After all, the only real difference between MODs and MIDIs are that the former includes the samples being used.

[Essman]

Interesting. &#A0;If I'm reading you right, are you saying that Dimwit will play MIDIs through DirectMusic, as opposed to the traditional MCI/winmm functions Cheapo uses?

The MCI/winmm functions suck and were the source of odd MIDI bugs in the previous games. DirectMusic is much more powerful (and it will be playing the MIDIs instead).

With the proper support from you (to specify the DLS to use), it might be possible to create MIDI+DLS combinations that are just as versatile as MODs. &#A0;After all, the only real difference between MODs and MIDIs are that the former includes the samples being used.

Yes, that would probably be easy to support.

[Proxima]

Just for the record, Cheapo already supports changing which part of the exit graphic is functional.

[Jase]

Haha cool thanks for looking into my suggestions. You're right, they're not all THAT neccesary, but they make for interesting gameplay I must say. Some of us aren't used to the Amiga style builder for example And we want to play what we're used to (that is, hella annoying gameplay and next to impossible levels in the Fun rating ) but with super graphics But yeah, I was just wondering.  

MOD sucks compared to MP3 yes. But SOME of us have trouble loading MP3s all that fast But bleh whatever works MIDI is boring  :-/ That's all I'm gonna say

But I just wanted to clarify what i meant by the customisable powerpoint style intro/outro editing screen.

Say you wanted to make the Main Menu look like the Sega Master system one. First we see a blank white "sheet". We paste a picture in for the background. Lovely. Now we paste a picture in for the "1 Player" button. Nice. We click something like "Action Settings" or w/e, and make the 1 Player button pick a pack and start the game. Now let's paste a "New Level" button.  Okay, ctrl-V. Lovely. Now let's pick action settings. Since the game probably won't have passwords, let's forget it. It's a decoration now. Uhh let's put the graphic in for the "SFX/Music" thing. Nice. Okay time for another action setting. This button can open a configuration window. Coolies. Okay save to pack. Beautiful. Done ^.^

Like I said, I don't think any of my suggestions will be looked into but I just had to say it lol just to make me feel better  

But thanks for reading it anywho
Jase
Over and out!

[Isu]

WAY too many smilies there XD

[Jase]

haha thats better than i usually do mate but yeh anyways...