Lix Community Level Set

[Proxima]

Here's the first of my Cheapo remakes http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> This is an easy level, but perhaps interesting to try to optimise. I've modified it to include some of the new skills in Lix. Also, I've edited my post at the top of the previous page to include an update to the "LIX" level, with grid snap used and diagonal bricks in the corners (I decided against using more decorative terrain than this). I'm happy for this to be the final version of the level.

[Proxima]

Those styles were made with the intention that each terrain piece's mask matches one of the pieces from the original game. The idea was to allow players who don't have the original styles still play the many old levels we made. It had downsides, like sticking to low-res so that e.g. slopes didn't look too nice, and some tiles just had masks unique enough that it was hard to remake them. Eventually the effort was abandoned, some of the tiles are still used in Matt's new styles though.
Matt isn't much of a level designer, so the styles weren't made with all the intricacies of level design in mind. Not sure whether the lack of traps is a result of that as well.
In any case, I'm still working on my styles, so if you have some objects/terrain tiles in mind you'd like to see, drop me a note. (In that regard, some design ideas for the hatch/exit of the shadow style would be nice.) I can probably also add objects to Matt's styles if you have something specific that fits there.

After building "The Adventure Playground", I've noticed that the Lix "Underworld" style is currently lacking some important pieces from the original Hell style, e.g. the spikes, the chains, the glowing red rocks. So I'd like to request these. (Of course it's also missing the letters and the diagonal blue bricks, but we don't have to have everything, especially as Lix makes it easy to combine terrain from different styles in one level, so diagonal bricks from the other styles can be used.)

I've attached the traps and hazards I animated for my Cheapo styles. Could any of these be included in Lix? (I realise that a couple of them may be problematic as they incorporate Lemmings graphics, e.g. the clashing rocks uses graphics from the Rock style. Also, I know I'm not much of an artist, so most of them probably don't merit inclusion, but I am very pleased with the fire hazard in particular.)

[mobius]

here's another. This is rather easy but I'm trying to figure  out a way of making it harder and/or having multiple solutions. If anybody has any ideas feel free.
and I fixed my level "Roundabout"

Here's the first of my Cheapo remakes http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> This is an easy level, but perhaps interesting to try to optimise. I've modified it to include some of the new skills in Lix. Also, I've edited my post at the top of the previous page to include an update to the "LIX" level, with grid snap used and diagonal bricks in the corners (I decided against using more decorative terrain than this). I'm happy for this to be the final version of the level.

that's a good one. One thing I noticed right away though (this has nothing to do with your level design) is that when you have a scrolling downward level its really easy to accidentally scroll down when selecting skills.  Or is that just me?

[Proxima]

"Elixer" is a nice and fun level!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> If you intended to refer to the alchemical drug, it's spelled "Elixir".

You could make it harder (and make the number sequence neater) by reducing builders and bashers to 3 of each. Conversely, if you wanted to add multiple solutions you could add more skills http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

Tricky 19 is another example, where a step of height 12 is actually created by erasing from a 32x32 block.  It doesn't look odd because the 32x32 block comprises of textures of unit length 4, allowing from shifts and cut-offs in 4-pixel increments without looking strange.

So it would seem the moral here is that with a little thought, you can have both 12 and 16 coexisting harmoniously in the same style.  Tame 9 in fact is such an example, with the "big" bricks in unit height 12, but many other elements (eg. the square red bricks, the crates) in unit heights of 8 and 16.

It seems to me that if someone were to create the ONML Bricks style strictly following your approach, the terrains featuring the height-12 bricks would never have been included in that style, and I'm not sure I would see the omission as a good thing.

Huh? Why wouldn't they have been included? I think they would have, just with a height of 16 instead of 12 (basically what I did, and it has the advantage that you can see where miners will end up).
And the Tricky 19 example shows that if you don't have a block of height 12, you just make yourself one.

What I meant to say is, you found some application for a block of height 12. Next thing happening is that you find an application for a block of height 23, 37, 14*Pi, ... and want these blocks as well. If you check the "concrete" folder, it's already pretty full, but if you want a block of some approximate size, you select it and it aligns with the rest. If I were to include all sorts of blocks there, you'd have to look closely or try a couple of times until you find the thing that aligns. In almost all instances, the exact size of the block doesn't matter, so powers of two suffice. It's just a whole lot more comfortable working with these, an with these standard sizes you get a very good estimate for the fall height, or the distance bombers walk before exploding, without having to learn it for every single block size. (Seeing you're the busy beaver and basically misaligned everything in the previous level you made perhaps you don't care about that, but I certainly do. I find it to be a massive chore to work with the original sets where the steel barely aligns with anything, or e.g. in the pillar set, where the designers were high on some rectangular pills of some non-rational side ratio and made the blocks 42x20 instead of 40x20 where they would have aligned at least with each other.)
In the few instances you really want a block of exactly 12, 23, 37, (int) 14*Pi, whatever, you can always use the no-overwrite trick to get a block of custom size. That said, 12 isn't such a bad number when it comes to alignment, so if you want e.g. one of those squarebrick thingies from the main folder of size 12 or 24, I'll make a special block dedicated to ccexplore. Not a whole production series though. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />
Ok, on to the relevant things now. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

After building "The Adventure Playground", I've noticed that the Lix "Underworld" style is currently lacking some important pieces from the original Hell style, e.g. the spikes, the chains, the glowing red rocks. So I'd like to request these. (Of course it's also missing the letters and the diagonal blue bricks, but we don't have to have everything, especially as Lix makes it easy to combine terrain from different styles in one level, so diagonal bricks from the other styles can be used.)

I've attached the traps and hazards I animated for my Cheapo styles. Could any of these be included in Lix? (I realise that a couple of them may be problematic as they incorporate Lemmings graphics, e.g. the clashing rocks uses graphics from the Rock style. Also, I know I'm not much of an artist, so most of them probably don't merit inclusion, but I am very pleased with the fire hazard in particular.)

Well, the new styles weren't done to be faithful recreations of the original sets, though it's obvious that many were inspired by them. Though I agree that this particular set is a bit limited in flexibility, I'll see whether I can recycle something from the scrapped old version, but I think the scrapped tiles are mostly just the originals with a Gauss filter applied. I'll see what I can do, as anything that isn't a block is pretty tricky for me. For the text, I think that's definitely beyond my capabilities, so the only solution would be finding some fitting public domain font.

I've had a look at your traps earlier already; replacing the lemming with a lix isn't a problem, thing is, I can't just take these graphics as they're low-res while lix is high-res, so that'd give a huge clash in style. If you have some high-res version of these, that'd be awesome. If not, I'll try to make something at least inspired by these.

Adventure playground is an excellent looking level btw, I find it hard to combine styles that different and still have it look good (see Alien Invasion http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />).
Just wondering, did you avoid using the shaded pieces of the top pillar part deliberately, or are you just not aware of them? (Basically, that's me wondering whether I should add the shading to the pillars in LIX before adding it to the list, or keep it as is.)

that's a good one. One thing I noticed right away though (this has nothing to do with your level design) is that when you have a scrolling downward level its really easy to accidentally scroll down when selecting skills.  Or is that just me?

I can't really tell, as I've stopped using the skill panel ages ago. You can also disable border scrolling if you using the right-click scrolling instead.

here's another. This is rather easy but I'm trying to figure  out a way of making it harder and/or having multiple solutions. If anybody has any ideas feel free.
and I fixed my level "Roundabout"

Ah, Roundabout looks a lot better now, and Elixir is nice as well. The the latter, the climbers climbing out at the top at the right is something one might overlook at the first try (at least I did).
Tell me when they're ready to be included in the list.

[Proxima]

That said, 12 isn't such a bad number when it comes to alignment, so if you want e.g. one of those squarebrick thingies from the main folder of size 12 or 24, I'll make a special block dedicated to ccexplore. Not a whole production series though. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

And for me as well; I'll need it to recreate my level "Have a bash at it!" faithfully, and possibly others as well. I don't need a whole production series, but a 12x24 brick would be even more useful to me than the square blocks.

Well, the new styles weren't done to be faithful recreations of the original sets, though it's obvious that many were inspired by them. Though I agree that this particular set is a bit limited in flexibility, I'll see whether I can recycle something from the scrapped old version, but I think the scrapped tiles are mostly just the originals with a Gauss filter applied. I'll see what I can do, as anything that isn't a block is pretty tricky for me. For the text, I think that's definitely beyond my capabilities, so the only solution would be finding some fitting public domain font.

Indeed. As I said, for myself I'm not bothered about the text, just the pieces I'd need for rebuilding old levels, and I'm sure they would be useful for designing new ones too.

I've had a look at your traps earlier already; replacing the lemming with a lix isn't a problem, thing is, I can't just take these graphics as they're low-res while lix is high-res, so that'd give a huge clash in style. If you have some high-res version of these, that'd be awesome. If not, I'll try to make something at least inspired by these.

I don't, since they were drawn for use in Cheapo, but if you could do that, that would be awesome. The two fire objects are the ones I'm most anxious to see included.

Adventure playground is an excellent looking level btw, I find it hard to combine styles that different and still have it look good

Thank you http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Just wondering, did you avoid using the shaded pieces of the top pillar part deliberately, or are you just not aware of them?

Which pieces? If you mean the white pillars in the top area and the piece named "pillar_top", I avoided that because it has the same width as the pillar body, and I wanted to use a wide top.

that's a good one. One thing I noticed right away though (this has nothing to do with your level design) is that when you have a scrolling downward level its really easy to accidentally scroll down when selecting skills.  Or is that just me?

It is, both in the game and the editor http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> One gets used to it though.

[Nortaneous]

Intended solution for The Pit. (Cf. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3Wlvg0YJeM" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Ball Pit, which is what I was trying to remake. Might take another shot at it later.)

As for the climber/brick concept demo I posted a while back, I'm going to remake that later today as a proper level.

[mobius]

^I like that one a lot. You should do it. Does lix have traps like that though?
I also like the one "LemDunk" I saw on youtube. you should remake that too.

"Elixer" is a nice and fun level!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> If you intended to refer to the alchemical drug, it's spelled "Elixir".

You could make it harder (and make the number sequence neater) by reducing builders and bashers to 3 of each. Conversely, if you wanted to add multiple solutions you could add more skills http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

I can't spell as you can see. (to much reliance on spell check).
How did you do it with 3 builders? I've tried digging and bashing in the beginning area to trap in the bunch but to build up to the miner's tunnel I cant get enough height with just one builder.
I think I will try to remake this level later and either change skills or the layout as well to make it harder. Like an "Elixir 2". I'll leave them as is for now. and you can add them to the list if you want. I would be honored http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />. Just curious how would you rate these? fun, tricky...?

I've fixed the name and here's another. *note; I made that level before seeing the one sort of similar to it in the lix pack. oh well

Also, are you guys still altering the program? If so, have you thought about being able to have a different number of lemmings come out of different entrances? I won't complain about all kinds of things I'd like to see in the game cause I know how much work it takes.

[Proxima]

How did you do it with 3 builders? I've tried digging and bashing in the beginning area to trap in the bunch but to build up to the miner's tunnel I cant get enough height with just one builder.

Why are you digging and bashing in the beginning area, don't you have a blocker?

Dig and bash in the tall terrain, and then mine just after passing the top-left corner of the steel, and you can get into the miner's tunnel.

[Proxima]

Also, are you guys still altering the program? If so, have you thought about being able to have a different number of lemmings come out of different entrances? I won't complain about all kinds of things I'd like to see in the game cause I know how much work it takes.

There would then be too much information that's hidden from the player and requires trial and error to discover. As a one-off, if you really have to, you can simulate it by putting multiple entrances in one place.

[ccexplore]

<snip>

Ha okay, I see you feel very strongly about this, and they're your styles after all so I guess why not.  I guess ultimately every style will constrain a level designer in some manner just based on what's available and not available, and you can mix styles in Lix anyhow.

I wasn't going for "let's support every random block size".  I even said that the Lemmings styles actually are not that far off from yours alignment-wise, just that they are a little less rigid than you are in that regard.  I think having size 12 or 24 is at least worth considering.

You mentioned having consistent alignments across multiple styles/levels as an aid for eg. bomber timing.  That is a good point, although it seems more applicable to the horizontal dimension than vertical dimension.  Plus, it just means you want to be consistent in alignment for the terrain that are actually involved with things like bomber timing; the argument doesn't say much about other terrain that aren't so involved (which is the case for most areas of many levels).  In any case, there are other means to handle this sort of thing, such as terrain hints (landmarks).

You mentioned creating custom block sizes and Tricky 19 being a good example.  However, the terrain in Tricky 19 actually comprises of a tessellation of 4x8 (low-res) rectangles, and the square block itself has no boundaries.  So it's easy to crop at 4-pixel increments without looking strange.  Whereas with most of your blocks, creating a custom block size from them is more like trying to create a custom-size steel block in the Lemmings styles.  It's not impossible per se, but certainly would take a bit of work, to the point where level designers are not likely to do it unless absolutely necessary (and of course it's almost never strictly necessary in Lemmings because steel areas aren't tied to specific terrain--not exactly a good tradeoff though).

And because you keep making fun of the inadvertent so-called misalignment in "Top Gear", I would ask you this:  given someone who has never actually seen the style used "properly" before, do you really believe the so-called misalignment is the very first thing they will spot looking at my level?  I'll bet they are more likely to question things like the unusual narrow-height tunnels leading to the exit space (which is not really my preference but does come out of backroute-preventative measures) than the fact that things are "misaligned"--especially when more precisely speaking, it's just following a different alignment than intended.  The irony is that I wasn't even intentionally going for "mis"alignment, it just fell out of me not liking the darkness of some of the block edges.  (And yes, I will work on that level more.  I just want to work on other level ideas first, I'm sure you can understand that.)

Anyhow, back to your regularly scheduled topic now.

[ccexplore]

I was thinking about the dessert-themed custom clones levels http://clonesgame.com/node/1183" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://clonesgame.com/node/1183 made by 92Dexter11, and it occurred to me that having a candy- or dessert-themed style in Lix might be a very good idea, seeing as it is that there is no analog of such a style in any of the Lemmings games (right?) so it would be something truly unique to Lix.  The theme would also seem good for "flower" levels/"female appeal", in fact maybe even more so than the abstract rainbow style?

[Proxima]

"Four Easy Peices" (I like the reference in the title, but it should be "Pieces") is a very nice level, easy but not too much so. (Given that the forum is mainly inhabited by players who enjoy making and solving excruciatingly hard levels, it's really nice to get some of these for a change!) I would rate both this and Elixir as "Tricky". It needs more decorative terrain, and I don't like the steel wall on the far right. I completed it with six builders to spare using this trick:

When the miner breaks open the box containing the lower-right lemming, I have him build immediately: then his brick is a little way up the tunnel and doesn't stop the lemming climbing out.

[ccexplore]

(Given that the forum is mainly inhabited by players who enjoy making and solving excruciatingly hard levels, it's really nice to get some of these for a change!)

Yeah, it's good to not neglect "easy" levels for the community set as it is not meant to be all hard.  After all that's how the so-called "flower" levels come into discussion, that we want some levels more geared towards new players.  I would make a few myself although I just feel that my limited artistic abilities makes me not an ideal contributor for that sort of levels.

Actually, speaking of artistic, any thoughts on whether we would have "special graphics" levels for Lix?  Or is that completely out of question due to copyright concerns (though I wonder if we can argue "fair use" in this case, especially if we are careful to not do verbatim copying of graphics but more fascimiles)?

[Proxima]

Two more levels, remakes of my Cheapo level "Drop the Dead Lemming" and its sequel, but obviously I had to change the title. (It seems that "Lix" is a much harder name to make puns on than "Lemmings", so I may just avoid pun-based titles....) The layout is obviously based on Fun 10 (I hope that's not a problem?) and I've left most of the decorative terrain work for later in case we get the additional pieces for the Underworld style I suggested. (Is it just me, or is the fall height much lower than in previous games?)

EDIT: Attached fixed versions of the levels.