Lix Community Level Set

[Proxima]

Just finished playing the tutorial levels. I'm definitely impressed with Lix so far  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> and some of the new skills look like they could be very interesting. I really don't like the batter, though, and will be staying well away from it in my level designs. I clearly just don't get it very well, because I haven't been able to get anywhere near the save requirement on the batter tutorial level. (I saved 95 on the Flinging level, though!)

The graphics are really nice, and I'm looking forward to getting properly started with level building. My only disappointment is that, while some of the styles are obvious substitutes for the original styles, so that most levels can be rebuilt in a corresponding style, there's no substitute for the Blue style. I'd like to remake Rhapsody in Blue, one of my favourite levels, but it will have to have a new title http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

I clearly just don't get it very well, because I haven't been able to get anywhere near the save requirement on the batter tutorial level. (I saved 95 on the Flinging level, though!)

Hmm, this is a little worrisome, I think it means the batter tutorial level may need some further tweaking?  I haven't played the tutorial levels myself yet so maybe I'll give it a go tonight and see.

At least a few multiplayer levels center around the batter, so it would be good to iron out as much as possible any kinks in the tutorial for that skill.  Anyway, I'm sure you have Simon's attention on this issue.

while some of the styles are obvious substitutes for the original styles, so that most levels can be rebuilt in a corresponding style, there's no substitute for the Blue style. I'd like to remake Rhapsody in Blue, one of my favourite levels, but it will have to have a new title http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

Hmm, seems like the better answer is to create a substitute blue style instead of remaking your level in a different style?  I'm no artist however (I think geoo and Matt are the main artists when it comes to Styles), so it might take a little bit of time. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

I really don't like the batter, though, and will be staying well away from it in my level designs. I clearly just don't get it very well, because I haven't been able to get anywhere near the save requirement on the batter tutorial level.

I have to say, the batter 'tutorial' is somewhat harder than you'd expect from a training level, and IMHO doesn't teach much either. I don't know how you'd tweak the current design to make it a nice simple tutorial, maybe it would need a complete overhaul http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />. But given time (and some better batter levels http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />) I'm sure you'll come to like the skill http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />.

As ccexplore touched on, the batter is primarily a multiplayer skill at the moment, and its usefulness in singleplayer isn't easy to quantify - ditto for other non-L1 skills like cuber, runner, and fling-bomber. That's part of the beauty of this new game, there's still plenty to discover http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />.

[Simon]

Yeah, the batter's main purpose is multiplayer balancing. Enenmy blockers and lone attackers are removable much easier and without losing lixes due to fling-exploder assignments. It's up to level designers whether to give batters, some levels are better without.

Tutorial levels will be the most-often played levels for new players, which will judge the whole game just by playing those. Rubix already did a good job on them, but batter level is indeed too hard. It kills necessary lixes all the time instead of e.g. returning them to earlier places. Maybe we'll also make a new in-level text system. The current text is done via one-time bitmaps.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

EDIT: Just noticed something. On this level, if you make a lemming climb, then block and explode at the top-left corner of the serif, the others can't get up. You could use this technique to get up a block of the same size on the original game.

You're talking about the 32x32 brown block at the bottom-right part of the "L" right?

I think either you might have remembered wrong, or maybe it's a little different in Cheapo.  The corresponding size in low-res Lemmings is 16x16, and a lemming can only walk up steps of at most 6 pixels, not 8.  The bomber pit is 8 pixels deep in Lemmings, and 16 in Lix with double the resolution.  So in this case, pretty much everything matches up between Lix and Lemmings size-wise, and I don't think the setup would've worked in Lemmings either. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />  Do you have a specific example in Lemmings or Cheapo to show what you expected to work?

What does work in both Lix and Lemmings (and Cheapo), is if you time the bomber to explode just a bit before he reaches the top of the block.

(Nice level btw, I don't know about you but I think it's already a great addition as-is to the community set.)

[Proxima]

I think either you might have remembered wrong, or maybe it's a little different in Cheapo.  The corresponding size in low-res Lemmings is 16x16, and a lemming can only walk up steps of at most 6 pixels, not 8.  The bomber pit is 8 pixels deep in Lemmings, and 16 in Lix with double the resolution.  So in this case, pretty much everything matches up between Lix and Lemmings size-wise, and I don't think the setup would've worked in Lemmings either. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />  Do you have a specific example in Lemmings or Cheapo to show what you expected to work?

Interesting. It works on Tame 9 (Mac) but maybe that's specific to the Mac version?

I'm glad you like the level; I'll try to find time to make it a bit more aesthetically pleasing.

[Proxima]

Meanwhile, I've started playing through the existing levels, starting with Rubix's "Pleasant" set. Very nice set of fun, easy levels with an excellent gradual difficulty increment. I notice that there is (as I guessed) already a level based around the letters "LIX" -- do you still want me to keep mine as well?

On Rubix's "LIX" level in particular, but also in general, it annoys me that it's so much harder to stretch a bridge in Lix than in previous versions -- you have to wait longer than I'm used to before the shrugger starts walking, and it feels like you get a shorter time interval in which it's possible to click.

Level 15 isn't working; there's an icon that seems to indicate missing terrain?

[Clam]

Level 15 isn't working; there's an icon that seems to indicate missing terrain?

This level contains the explosive crate object, this used to be a decorative object (i.e. the lix would walk right through it), but it was recently changed to a terrain object. The level file still refers to the decorative crate that no longer exists, so the game refuses to run the level. Try the attached level file with the crates removed. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

As an aside, maybe the game should just run the level without the missing pieces, and maybe give a warning that something is wrong?

There are a couple of gameplay annoyances ("bugs" would be too strong a word) that are all part of the same thing: the replay function remembers and includes when you pause and change speed.

This doesn't happen for me (on the Windows version), maybe it's different on your version?. The replay reverts to normal speed shortly before the last recorded action, maybe this is what you're seeing?

[ccexplore]

Interesting. It works on Tame 9 (Mac) but maybe that's specific to the Mac version?

I checked and the height in Tame 9 is 12 pixels (low-res), while the block in your level would be 16 pixels tall in low-res.  Tame 9 works the same in both Mac and non-Mac versions.

Perhaps what we need are additional rectangular terrain that have a height of exactly twice the maximum walkable step-height.  [Or more generally, heights that are integer multiples of the maximum walkable step-height.  The brick-wall terrains in Lemming's "hell" set are a prime example of what I'm talking about.  Perhaps such terrain already exists in one of Lix's styles.]

[Proxima]

This doesn't happen for me (on the Windows version), maybe it's different on your version?. The replay reverts to normal speed shortly before the last recorded action, maybe this is what you're seeing?

Hmm, maybe, but I seem to remember it reverting to normal speed much too early sometimes, and I think it corresponded to my changing speed during play. The replay also starts out paused if I paused early on during play or something like that.

I checked and the height in Tame 9 is 12 pixels (low-res), while the block in your level would be 16 pixels tall in low-res.  Tame 9 works the same in both Mac and non-Mac versions.

That would account for it. Sorry about the confusion http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

For the tutorial levels, as stated in the first post, I was hoping to do a somewhat more extensive series of levels for that purpose, introducing all the skills and features and some behavior in a very gentle manner, also requiring to make use of previous lessons learnt to ensure people won't forget things later again. I got to see whether I can make it so that it's fit for players not really familiar with Lemmings, while not being boring to players with previous experience either.
The other tutorial could perhaps be seen as a head-start for those who don't want to go through a longer tutorial.

With regards to bridge stretching, generally levels should not make use of it, unless they cannot be modified to work without (I can only think of one example of that). The feature of queuing builders should also discourage from that, as not having to assign another builder after each bridge is more comfortable.

Hmm, seems like the better answer is to create a substitute blue style instead of remaking your level in a different style?  I'm no artist however (I think geoo and Matt are the main artists when it comes to Styles), so it might take a little bit of time.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

I'm afraid to say my artistic abilities are too limited to make sophisticated crystals like in the original game.
If you're just aiming for something blue though, there's plenty of that: The blocks from the carnival set, wall and pillar tiles from my shadow set (can also make 32 px wide pillars if you want), and soon there'll also be pipes of width 8. Incidentally, I just made a level with working title "Blue level" two days ago as it's entirely blue, which I still have to think of a better name for.

Meanwhile, I've started playing through the existing levels, starting with Rubix's "Pleasant" set. Very nice set of fun, easy levels with an excellent gradual difficulty increment. I notice that there is (as I guessed) already a level based around the letters "LIX" -- do you still want me to keep mine as well?

I don't see why not. At least you can't easily take the route along the top unlike in RubiX' level, as you start at the bottom and the skillset is sufficiently different. I see one small misalignment at the top left of the X, but I see you already found out about the grid which helps avoiding these things easily.

Perhaps what we need are additional rectangular terrain that have a height of exactly twice the maximum walkable step-height.  [Or more generally, heights that are integer multiples of the maximum walkable step-height.  The brick-wall terrains in Lemming's "hell" set are a prime example of what I'm talking about.  Perhaps such terrain already exists in one of Lix's styles.]

I don't really see much need for it, such blocks would also not fit as well with the other blocks and the grid. You can simply use some 16 pixel high block to achieve the same effect, and with less precise bomber timing (if you can't afford a blocker for example). Or if you really insist, 16+8 = 24, and there's plenty of pieces of height 8 and 16.
For exact multiples of the step height (now I honestly don't see the use for that) the same works.

Hmm, maybe, but I seem to remember it reverting to normal speed much too early sometimes, and I think it corresponded to my changing speed during play. The replay also starts out paused if I paused early on during play or something like that.

What happens is that during action replay, 3 seconds before the last recorded action, the game reverts to normal speed if some fast forward was enabled, just like ccexplore said. Notably, if you click to disable action replay during these 3 seconds and then load the savestate again, the game will stop 3 seconds before the previous assignment then, perhaps that's what you encountered.
It used to happen right when the last action occurred, but as it's frequently the last skill assignment that you want to amend, I think it makes more sense they way it is now. Nevertheless, I still tend to mess up with the feature not expecting the speed to revert to normal every now and then.
Furthermore, when you're in pause/FF/FFF/ZZZ mode, and load a savestate, the game will continue in pause/FF/FFF/ZZZ mode. Not sure how useful this is, but I think being able to load a savestate and having the game immediately paused is pretty valuable.

[Proxima]

With regards to bridge stretching, generally levels should not make use of it, unless they cannot be modified to work without (I can only think of one example of that). The feature of queuing builders should also discourage from that, as not having to assign another builder after each bridge is more comfortable.

Indeed, I agree with levels not requiring it, but that doesn't mean the player won't want to use it, especially as Lix keeps track of your records for each level. Besides, I grew up with the original game, which as we know is very builder-intensive; stretching my bridges, and feeling annoyed when I fail, is now far too deeply ingrained a habit to get rid of.

If you're just aiming for something blue though, there's plenty of that: The blocks from the carnival set, wall and pillar tiles from my shadow set (can also make 32 px wide pillars if you want), and soon there'll also be pipes of width 8. Incidentally, I just made a level with working title "Blue level" two days ago as it's entirely blue, which I still have to think of a better name for.

The carnival set is completely different in feel though, and not the most attractive of the Lix sets. But I'll see how I feel when I get round to converting that level -- there are plenty of other ones I can do first.

What happens is that during action replay, 3 seconds before the last recorded action, the game reverts to normal speed if some fast forward was enabled, just like ccexplore said. Notably, if you click to disable action replay during these 3 seconds and then load the savestate again, the game will stop 3 seconds before the previous assignment then, perhaps that's what you encountered.
It used to happen right when the last action occurred, but as it's frequently the last skill assignment that you want to amend, I think it makes more sense they way it is now. Nevertheless, I still tend to mess up with the feature not expecting the speed to revert to normal every now and then.
Furthermore, when you're in pause/FF/FFF/ZZZ mode, and load a savestate, the game will continue in pause/FF/FFF/ZZZ mode. Not sure how useful this is, but I think being able to load a savestate and having the game immediately paused is pretty valuable.

Thanks for explaining. I still find it a bit annoying, especially the automatic pause, but if you want to leave it in I can accept that.

[ccexplore]

I don't really see much need for it, such blocks would also not fit as well with the other blocks and the grid.

Well, the argument is circular since obviously you originally created some of the existing styles with a particular grid alignment in mind.  If it was me I might argue the solution is to allow a user-defined grid alignment option in the editor as well as the pre-defined ones. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" /> The original Lemming styles clearly did not share any rigid fascination towards the number 16 (high-res), with such examples as the ONML Brick style having heights related to multiple of 6's (low-res).  Or that a build bridge is of height 12 (low-res).

All that said, I suppose yes, it's not that big of a deal. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" /> http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[geoo]

Indeed, I agree with levels not requiring it, but that doesn't mean the player won't want to use it, especially as Lix keeps track of your records for each level. Besides, I grew up with the original game, which as we know is very builder-intensive; stretching my bridges, and feeling annoyed when I fail, is now far too deeply ingrained a habit to get rid of.

I know that habit very well, when playing Lemmix or Cheapo I do it all the time as well even when I don't need it. But it feels more like a bad habit, so no reason not to try to drop it. The queuing feature helps with that, now I rarely do it in Lix, as there's rarely an instance when I have to assign a builder to a builder that has just finished.
If you want to use as few skills as possible, you'll always run into hard to execute solutions. If you're really going for these, then Lix has got all kinds of tool assistance (stavestates, ZZZ mode) to make them a lot less annoying than in the original games.

If it was me I might argue the solution is to allow a user-defined grid alignment option in the editor as well as the pre-defined ones. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

That's actually already possible, set it in the options menu and use the # grid.
(But I still don't see why 12 would be preferable to 16 for block size. There's that one single obscure feature of bombing away a ledge http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />, which can be achieved just as nicely with the current blocks. I prefer consistency, and now it just happens that the majority of blocks have been set to be powers of two. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)

[ccexplore]

Well, now that I examine the terrain offerings in Lemmings and ONML more closely, they too actually fall into multiples of 8 and 16 (low-res) more often than I thought, while the "unit lengths" in some cases are multiples of 6 and 12.  For example, the ONML Bricks set that leads to the Tame 9 example Proxima referenced, the terrain piece that makes up the brick Proxima was talking about, it was part of a terrain piece of height 48 (low-res), which of course is both a multiple of 8 as well as 12.

Tricky 19 is another example, where a step of height 12 is actually created by erasing from a 32x32 block.  It doesn't look odd because the 32x32 block comprises of textures of unit length 4, allowing from shifts and cut-offs in 4-pixel increments without looking strange.

So it would seem the moral here is that with a little thought, you can have both 12 and 16 coexisting harmoniously in the same style.  Tame 9 in fact is such an example, with the "big" bricks in unit height 12, but many other elements (eg. the square red bricks, the crates) in unit heights of 8 and 16.

It seems to me that if someone were to create the ONML Bricks style strictly following your approach, the terrains featuring the height-12 bricks would never have been included in that style, and I'm not sure I would see the omission as a good thing.