Lix Community Level Set

[ccexplore]

I had another go at Brickout B8-b today, and finally managed to solve it.

Believe it or not, that's still a backroute, although I really should've caught this one, as I've considered this solution multiple times during the various level designing and backroute fixing.

That said, given how long it seemed to have taken geoo to solve it even this way, maybe this solution is "good enough" for the community set, even if it wasn't the one I had in mind.  As a bonus, there is nothing controversial about geoo's solution.

I'll post an updated version of Brickout B later today with geoo's latest solution eliminated.  The saga shall continue! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

-slipping again,
thanks for the help! Idk what happened but neither of Geoo's replays worked for either my version or Nortaneous's. Proxima's worked and I like it. I don't consider having a walker build in a dig hole  a glitch, personally (in mid dig to block them).

-untitled12
Well... I thought you'd find that level too easy but you actually found a completely different solution! I attached my intended solution. And I'd say they are both equally difficult too. I could easily take away your method by making the tiny steel peice larger but Idk if I wanna do that. I'll give it a proper name eventually too.

-Towers
As to the towers level, I don't even remember what the skills are. I just had some arbitrary skills in there while I was messing around with the terrain. I couldn't come up with a good plan, so I uploaded because Proxima mentioned earlier that he liked the layout and had ideas. I don't, so you (or anyone) can have it.
-One idea I did have was to have a space of uneven terrain and have a lix dig to provide a flat surface for others to climb up it. (I actually made a simple level like this in Lemmix and will upload it sometime. I'm curious how difficult/easy this is to see). But this idea kind of clashed with the Two tower layout for some reason.

-as for five for fighting, my intended solution had an extra basher but it was back routed. I'll check again because I don't exactly remember what the version you two solved looked like.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

I'll post an updated version of Brickout B later today with geoo's latest solution eliminated.  The saga shall continue! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

good, I wanna see this borderline glitch   http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

[Proxima]

Okay, looks like I have to post my solution to untitled12 now. This one's definitely easier than you intended the level to be.

[Nortaneous]

This is probably a terrible level, but whatever.

-Towers
...
-One idea I did have was to have a space of uneven terrain and have a lix dig to provide a flat surface for others to climb up it. (I actually made a simple level like this in Lemmix and will upload it sometime. I'm curious how difficult/easy this is to see). But this idea kind of clashed with the Two tower layout for some reason.

That's how I did it.

[Simon]

I've uploaded the new version. Here's the changelist, many of it is minor stuff:

Code: [Select]

57aac1b Lemmini level format support for L1/ONML styles
6af2caa tutorial in-level hints, read doc/files.txt, bug: hint vanishes on Esc dialog

0bd5249 intermediate update to Clam's levels
cf6371b Clam's multiplayer levels
a33b2a3 new levels: Tower Defense (Part 22934) and Scorched Earth
d708e0b levels: tunesia 3p, schnuckeluguck

22b1e8f some additions to Matt's styles (thin pieces by thick molasses, diagonal planks by Nortaneous, nicer trunk)
1e0a279 added central water piece to Simon's water
1a3adf5 construction style: 12/24 blocks and platforms added
62ee182 abstract style: junction pieces (most by Nortaneous)
c45c504 first bit of the abstract style
5de4625 new tiles for sandstone styles, lighter ebony
465a95f ccx's guideline pieces

982dab3 better explosion flinging, strongest near center, to be field-tested
1cced2a fixed ccx's bug: sticky climber ascended inside wall
b89cf3c basher doesn't leave relics on last swing
9e622e9 basher ignores steel in top 2 pixels
cd8559e walker bug in narrow gaps fixed (didn't ascend/fall)
8e99566 water only deadly on foot, not on body
a1f01b9 spawnint minimum, default 4, never delay first spawn

15b7fef replay save browser default filename: level-player
bd194f6 saner hotkeys on level end dialog
a68b6cc auto-save singleplayer replays: only successful ones
25d0915 replay cancelling option, scroll/priority via key
The IRCies have the current version already, we had a multiplayer night. Everyone else should consider updating (link: see homepage icon under avatar), so future replays can be viewed properly. Old replays may cease to play back accurately.

There are more physics changes that are due (the tumbler stuck endlessly inside a narrow gap terrain is still in), so there may be future versions that disrupt replays once more.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

I'll post an updated version of Brickout B later today with geoo's latest solution eliminated.  The saga shall continue! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Here it is.  I'm really tempted to fork it over to D10 instead of continuing it as B8-C, but keeping the current filename does allow one to work from an existing replay for the B-lineage if they want to, I guess.  So B8-C it is.

And given that it seems only geoo is still working on this level for real, and I know he won't peek at solutions (not that I care one way or another), I've posted replay of my intended solution for those who are curious.  Maybe people can tell me if they find anything controversial with it.  (But in case anyone wants to avoid spoiler, please try not to be too specific, or use the spoiler-quoting method on anything spoilery.)

[edit: forgot to mention this, but you may find some parts of the replay easier to understand by watching in zzz-mode.  I could've re-recorded the replay to minimize that sort of thing somewhat, but I'm lazy/busy.]

Oh, and I know many of you would say there are so many easy ways I could've gotten rid of all the past backroutes, and you'd be right, but remember that I want to avoid making changes that lead too directly into the intended solution, plus I can't shake this weird fetish with keeping this level symmetrical. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />  (Besides, geoo's backroutes are often awesome in their own ways, so the multitude of backroutes is really somewhat of a blessing.)

[Proxima]

Yes, I haven't been attempting to solve Brickout as I know that your levels are always insanely hard, and there are still some some of the moderate-difficulty ones I haven't solved yet, as well as trying to find time to build my own. Still, here are my thoughts after watching the replay. (Since I don't want to give even the slightest hint about which skills are used where, I'll just put the whole lot in spoiler text.)

I see what you mean. That trick where the cuber-in-progress turns round the second climber doesn't look like it should work, even after viewing it in "zzz" mode, yet it does. I guess this is what they say about all puzzles -- people who succeed in finding the solution think it's ingenious, while those who don't think it's unfair. And obviously it's possible for someone to work out that this trick works, since you did. Still, to me it just doesn't feel like it's in keeping with the spirit of the game, since the normal behaviour of the skills doesn't suggest that this might be worth trying out to see if it works -- and it's not something you're at all likely to have observed on other levels, unlike the familiar "walker ascends through in-progress cube" behaviour. I think I also feel particularly negative about it because the other two main tricks on the level (the basher/platformer trick at the start, and placing a cuber in the path of the miner so the crowd can ascend) are beautiful ones that I now feel jealous I didn't think of, and this could end up becoming one of my favourite levels. Though I don't like the way so many routes have been blocked off by scattering sawblades around. I think what I'd do if it were my level (unless you've already rejected this possibility because of other backroutes) is get rid of the controversial move by taking out one climber, jumper, cuber and the digger, and just turn the climber there with a walker.

[geoo]

Ok, the http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/download.php" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">new version of Lix is out, and you'll see the terrain you (Nortaneous/TM) submitted in there, but in slightly different places or with slightly different names. I adapted all levels using the terrain to work with the new version now, and they'll be on the list with the next update (except for the backroute-riddled Four Lix and a Funeral, which I attach here in case you want to edit it further).
Hopefully my solution to Nortaneous' Slipping Again works now for you with the latest version.

Your replay is for untitled-12 but your post talks about TM's Towers. Deliberate?   http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

Well kind of, I thought the solution to Towers was too obvious to attached, but didn't think of anything to write about untitled-12.
I feel as well that the intended solution is a bit harder to spot than our solutions though.

Towers as it is now is actually a nice easier level right now, but if course feel free to change or make a second version anyone.

Castle in the Sky: yeah, it does indeed feel a bit tedious, doing the same thing a couple of times. I like the design for some reason though.

Here it is.  I'm really tempted to fork it over to D10 instead of continuing it as B8-C, but keeping the current filename does allow one to work from an existing replay for the B-lineage if they want to, I guess.  So B8-C it is.

That was really useful, as my new solution is just a slight variation you should have noticed. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

That was really useful, as my new solution is just a slight variation you should have noticed. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Oh, whoops. Thanks for pointing it out, earlier I missed how you used one of the jumpers to prevent losing one more lix.  I thought it was odd that your B8-b solution worked even though I thought I ruled it out way back in early versions, now I understand.

Okay, I'm stumped once again, I don't think I'm going to see any quick way to fix this without major changes.  I'll have to take some time to evaluate my next move.

Still, here are my thoughts after watching the replay.

Fair points.  I do think I need to clarify that part of the solution (or just redo the replay a little to make things more clear) that I'm sure has gotten you and others a little confused:

What is happening is this:
1) the 2nd lix is hoisting himself up the wall before the exit after climbing up on the left side, per the usual transition to walker after end of climbing.
2) while (really just before) 2nd lix is hoisting, 1st lix is transforming into cuber
3) by the time the 2nd lix finishes hoisting, the cube is completed, and so the 2nd lix is stuck in the cube.  The cube is too tall to walk out, and the lix cannot climb out because being stuck right in the middle of it, the game considers there is overhang at the place where the lix tries to climb.
4) because he is stuck, you are able to catch him facing left
5) you assign digger, then immediately assign platformer, to clear out the lower parts of the cube without actually moving downwards from the digging, as well as finishing the rest of the solution.  [It was not really my intention to require such precision with the digger, it's just a side effect of the brick terrain setup with the middle entrance, inadvertently requiring too much precision regarding where you start mining.  In a final version I'll probably try to redo the terrain to be more forgiving, although I might have to give up on bricks and remake the entire level accordingly.]

I think the current replay obscures #3 and #4 making it seem like complete magic that the 2nd lix turns around.  I should've wait before assigning the digger to make it more clear that the lix got stuck inside the cube.

What's controversial to me is whether the 2nd lix should successfully hoist while the cuber is going through his transformations.  One can argue that maybe the hoisting should be interrupted and the lix reverts to falling, or that maybe he goes back to climbing to account for the additional terrain.  It doesn't help that the current cuber animation is not accurately reflecting what is actually happening in terms of terrain.

In lineage-C of the level, I tried to make it less controversial by adding a batter.  The 1st lix doesn't cube until the 2nd lix is walker, and the 2nd lix uses the batter to delay himself while the 1st lix encases the 2nd lix in its cube.  This is much less controversial to me (since the game already considers the lix gone at the moment you assign cuber, I don't think one can argue that the batter should interrupt the cubing).  Of course, the batter as expected introduces too many issues, and there seem to be no other suitable skills for substitute.

Anyway, it is indeed possible to get rid of the controversial parts altogether, but I was also thinking that the reduction in skills would be too much of a giveaway at this point.  But it certainly seems acceptable in terms of the community set.

[Proxima]

Finally, solution to Get Hype 5 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Still haven't solved No More Heroes, but frustratingly, I can now save 11/30, I just don't know whether my method is on the right lines http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" /> (That is, I can save 11/30 with a method that could potentially save the required 27/30, given more time. If I ignore the save requirement and just try to save as many as possible, it's easy to save more than 11.)

And here's what I've made of TM's Towers. Backroute away!

EDIT: Have an easier version, too http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

EDIT: New solution to Slipping Again. In reply to TM, of course building in a dig pit is not a glitch. The borderline glitch I was referring to in my previous solution is that if you assign builder to a digger halfway through his last stroke before he breaks through, you can make him build on air. There was some discussion of this on page 17 of this topic, since geoo used it to solve my level Buridan's Lix.

[mobius]

-for Untitled12:
I knew what you were going to do before I finished watching. Why did I not see that? (or maybe more importantly; I'm surprised geoo didn't) Now I'm not sure what to do. I'll have to give this level more time.

-I plan on doing a level that's based on Four Lix and a Funural, so unless you really wanted that level (as it is now), you can forget about it.

and the updates are great!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> I love the guidelines

-for brick-out; either way, if this 'glitch' is removed or changed or not, I don't think it will detract from the level much. If you can figure out another way to have a lix turn around on top of the block building  and mining down is still challenge as far as I'm concerned.

-about the digging glitch;
Personally I don't see this really as a glitch either. One argument for it is that it's practically impossible do get rid of (that glitch). Unless you have diggers remove sections of terrain in a instantaneous manner. Or have diggers unable to build on their last dig above air, if that is possible.

[Proxima]

I found a backroute in Circular Ruins. Here's a fixed version, and as usual, I've updated the easier version so both have the same terrain, even though the change doesn't affect the easier version's solution.

[mobius]

I like what you did with the towers level Proxima, very nice  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

here is untitled12, changed slightly and touched up. no climber this time.

next is a level sort of inspired from Bridges' from Revolution. you need the 'acid' bmp I made to go with it. [this is different; it's still crappy but better than what I uploaded in the feedback topic] I just got tired of water, you can of course change it if you want.
I wanted to make a really detailed acid but I don't have the time right now.

[Proxima]

Yet again, digger-turning-on-steel backroute. [EDIT: Or you can just save that lix with a jumper.] [EDIT: Bouncing on that idea, if you'll pardon the pun, here's 100% saved. Considering this uses most of the skills and the level is very easy otherwise, did you intend to require this?]

The acid looks awesome!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />  And the new decorative terrain on Still Life looks gorgeous too.

[Clam]

Here are some various replays for recent levels, I forget where I was up to with these but this should cover the past week or so. The new replay auto-naming feature makes this much easier, by the way http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

Five for Fighting: Tough puzzle thanks to the limited builder count, the time limit frustrated me for a while, but eventually I found a solution that leaves a minute spare.
Slipping again: The replay is for Nortaneous's version, the same idea applies for the easier one. Curiously, I had to use both bashers getting out of the pit, if you stop the replay after the first basher then some lix spill out somehow.
Castles in the sky: This one is a little tiresome with so many obstacles to bomb through, I think it would be fine with half the number of walls. The hole under the exit looks strange, and really isn't necessary IMHO.
Circular Ruins: Again, lack of builders makes for a solid puzzle. This solution only barely works (though it was fun to find http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />), if it is the intended route then it would be nice to have a bit more leeway. Attached a replay for the easier version too, this one was surprisingly fun since the builders alone don't quite get you far enough.
Still Life: Good way to isolate a worker lemming. There's a lot of walking to do though - this level could be compressed a lot, and really there's no reason why it should take up more than one screen.
A Soulful Bounding Leap: I found a different 100% solution to Proxima. I wonder if it might even be a good idea to force 100% here. This was a really fun one to solve, and also a neat use of the horizontal wrap which (IIRC) none of my own levels use.