Lix Community Level Set

[Simon]

you keep using words like "usability", "bad" and "better-designed" to make it sound like your preferences are objective facts

I'll go out on a limb and assert that most people here dislike hidden traps. geoo's and my views are obvious by the posts above, and even Molasses said he was shocked by them at first, then got conditioned. With Clam and Rubix, I discussed hidden traps in IRC back when we didn't have logging, thus I can't back this up with anything substantial. The time limit thread was the topic which several people commented on publicly.

However, such a special guideline is a corollary of much more general design principles, like clarity and recognizability of the given environment. These are indeed standard in contemporary game and software design.

it makes me feel that my opinions aren't welcome here, and that's putting me off wanting to contribute.

Actually, I encourage you to give opinions and constructive criticism. It's feedback for the game and the levels. Some obscure bugs were found only due to extensive game usage during the level design project. I'm more than happy to read stuff by you.

Sometimes, it's just hard to guess what you want. First I believe you want the level to remain as it is, now you say you'd like the trap visible instead of hidden. You also think your opinions/feedback aren't welcome, even when it is d'accord with geoo's/mine/other frequent posters', and/or brings forward a topic which people are happy to comment on... I didn't quite grasp that.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

I can see where Proxima is coming from.  Regardless of what one thinks about hidden traps or time limits or whatever, it is pretty clear that the "community level set" has always been more like "community level set as envisioned and curated by geoo and Simon and no one else in the community" http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />.  To be fair I don't think it was ever even hinted to be anything but that; it's not like the community gets to vote on levels and such.  And it's pretty clear that the intention was more to create a set that serves as the "official" level set for the Lix game.  Still, it's refreshing to me to hear disagreement voiced over how the game and levels should be, even if nothing changes.  It may be a better game to Simon and geoo, but it is also a fact that they aren't supposed to be the sole audience that the level set targets for.  And yet, with diverse views on level design, realistically you are unlikely to get a set of levels that will be 100% satisfactory to everyone who plays, so it's not unreasonable to push certain design philosophies into the set, given that not doing so doesn't necessarily guarantee more satisfaction anyhow.

It's also good to keep in mind that it's always possible to create your own custom levelset instead of going into this one.  Clam for example has mulled over repeatedly whether some of his levels should go into his own set vs this one (to be clear, for reasons other than disagreement over level design philosophy, I think).

(And as usual, I have no strong opinions one way or another over the latest hot topic.  Although it is worth noting that nothing really stays hidden once you take a peak in the editor. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)

[mobius]

well, the only reason I had any objections to changing the level was because I was trying to make it as close to the original as possible. But in any case; here it is with the suggestions. The trap is unhidden and I also lengthened the left side so it's not as tight (with the basher and all) and I took the time away. I agree completely about time limits. The hidden traps never bothered me but I usually take a ridiculous amount of time on a level anyway. I keep playing it over and over. ...Some call it obsession. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />  Anyway, I'm making these for others not myself so I'll oblige. Just be sure to note somewhere that it's slightly changed from Pieuw's version. This better be the last time I have to upload that level. jk http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />
btw, I really like that level, Recycling plant.

Then, here is an early version of The Italian job. I changed the name in case anyone decides it's good enough to be considered. The reason I changed it is because this one involves stopping a miner and basher simultaneously, which is something I'm not good at. But I know it's possible. The trap isn't nessisary, but if you take it away also take away 1 builder. This is more of a test, I'm curious which of these is better overall in either technique or originality etc...
Also, could someone upload my level Italian Job. I deleted mine by accident http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

[Proxima]

Sometimes, it's just hard to guess what you want. First I believe you want the level to remain as it is, now you say you'd like the trap visible instead of hidden. You also think your opinions/feedback aren't welcome, even when it is d'accord with geoo's/mine/other frequent posters', and/or brings forward a topic which people are happy to comment on... I didn't quite grasp that.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. For the level, I simply hadn't thought of the option of leaving the trap but making it visible, until you mentioned it. For the general point, what I meant was that, even though the discussion of what to do with this one trap is pretty trivial, I can see that the differences in our views on level design are going to cause problems later on with my levels, and it's probably best if I don't take part in this. Sorry again for being such a pain. I'm really glad to have had the chance to get a look at Lix -- it's a really great version of the game!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

but I liked your levels. Don't leave...

I beat the first version of "Long way to fall" btw. The miner trick is something new to me/well that's how you solved my level 'bridges burning' when I actually intended on just digging to separate the others and losing the basher (or bashers)

[ccexplore]

For the general point, what I meant was that, even though the discussion of what to do with this one trap is pretty trivial, I can see that the differences in our views on level design are going to cause problems later on with my levels, and it's probably best if I don't take part in this. Sorry again for being such a pain. I'm really glad to have had the chance to get a look at Lix -- it's a really great version of the game!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

Are you sure?  No one thinks you're being a pain and it may not seem like it, but your opinions are at least being discussed even if not always accepted.

I feel like even if there may be some levels here and there that may have "irreconcilable differences", surely most of the levels will be okay?  I mean, so far I don't recall any controversies amongst the dozens or more levels from you or most others, and this hidden trap level isn't even yours.  My experience (and memory) with your Cheapo levels may be somewhat limited, but I have a hard time seeing much controversies coming out from them?

[ccexplore]

Okay, less drama, more levels.  Please help backroute-test the level and let me know what you think.

[edit: whoops, already see a very silly backroute myself. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> Fixed now (hopefully), unfortunate someone already downloaded the first version.]

[edit: removed this version and posted update version with more backroute fixes]

[Simon]

cc: I was the second downloader and got the version without the silly backroute. Attached a solution, I'm not sure whether it's a backroute or not. >_>

Proxima: Thanks for the accolade. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> Of course it's your decision whether you stay with the level project or not. I'd merely like to correct one formulation of cc's: The level project is not going to be as geoo or I envision it as ideal for us, but instead as enjoyable by as many players as possible.

Waltz I didn't solve yet, but it looks gorgeous.

-- Simon

[geoo]

For the general point, what I meant was that, even though the discussion of what to do with this one trap is pretty trivial, I can see that the differences in our views on level design are going to cause problems later on with my levels, and it's probably best if I don't take part in this. Sorry again for being such a pain. I'm really glad to have had the chance to get a look at Lix -- it's a really great version of the game!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

Are you being serious?  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />
Your levels are some of the best contributions, excellent in both design and level idea, and it'd be a great loss if you stopped designing levels now.
I don't see how you infer that we're going to run into big issues at some point in the future, I mean, wouldn't that have constituted itself in me having issues with your levels if it were true?
I remember one single instance where I changed something in one of your levels, and that was when I moved the water in Close to the Edge down by a tiny bit, as its top parts were above the steel, and thus you could see where the water is cut off (which wasn't visible in the editor, so I assumed it was just a little oversight on your part), and noted that I did that. I remember making a suggestion for LIX and Behind Bars, which you didn't like, so I didn't add these suggestions in.

I set a couple of guidelines - no hard and fast rules - meaning you can break them if you have a reason for it, and discuss individual suggestions. You even agreed that in this particular instance, following the guideline (i.e. uncovering the trap) was a good solution in the end, which ended up being the result of the discussion.

I don't feel I'm being overly bossy about enforcing the design principles here. But if you disagree, tell me and make suggestions what to change in the way things are done.

So yeah, "community level set as envisioned and curated by geoo and Simon and no one else in the community" (or more exactly, to quote Simon, "as envisioned by us to be enjoyable for as many players as possible") might be true to some extent simply due to the way this is set up, but I'm trying to keep levels mostly as they are and discuss when I don't like something; if you think it's downright impossible to cope with this way, then I'll happily hand over the organizational work with all its (minor as I think) privileges over to you, if think you're better fit for the job, and willing to maintain the list and do all the other stuff. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" /> (Then I get some more time to make and play levels and perhaps work on the styles again. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />)

well, the only reason I had any objections to changing the level was because I was trying to make it as close to the original as possible. But in any case; here it is with the suggestions. The trap is unhidden and I also lengthened the left side so it's not as tight (with the basher and all) and I took the time away. I agree completely about time limits. The hidden traps never bothered me but I usually take a ridiculous amount of time on a level anyway. I keep playing it over and over. ...Some call it obsession.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />  Anyway, I'm making these for others not myself so I'll oblige. Just be sure to note somewhere that it's slightly changed from Pieuw's version. This better be the last time I have to upload that level. jk  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />
btw, I really like that level, Recycling plant.

Then, here is an early version of The Italian job. I changed the name in case anyone decides it's good enough to be considered. The reason I changed it is because this one involves stopping a miner and basher simultaneously, which is something I'm not good at. But I know it's possible. The trap isn't nessisary, but if you take it away also take away 1 builder. This is more of a test, I'm curious which of these is better overall in either technique or originality etc...
Also, could someone upload my level Italian Job. I deleted mine by accident  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

It's on the list, you can find it here:
https://raw.github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/gh-pages/theitalianjob.txt" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">https://raw.github.com/geoo89/lixlfpack/gh-pages/theitalianjob.txt

Yeah, I see your point about trying to keep the level as original as possible, but when remaking you already make quite a bunch of design choices (which style to choose, how to lay out the terrain), and uncovering the trap or extending the walkway doesn't affect the solution concept, so I feel there's not much of a difference in that.

I attached two solutions to The French Connection, using two different ways of basher/miner cancelling (not sure which one is intended, I like the first one better). It's a pretty tough one, possibly harder than The Italian Job, but I find Italian Job more elegant, because it uses merging the miner tunnel into the basher tunnel instead of relying on some technical trick (or pretty precise timing in case of my first solution).

About Recycling Plant, do you mean Clam's "Lix Recycling Plant", or are you mocking the non-existence of that level in the list (which I intend to remake from my L2 version at some point). http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[edit: whoops, already see a very silly backroute myself. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> Fixed now (hopefully), unfortunate someone already downloaded the first version.]

Yeah, that fixed my first two backroutes, but I got two new solutions instead. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

[edit: whoops, already see a very silly backroute myself. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" /> Fixed now (hopefully), unfortunate someone already downloaded the first version.]

Yeah, that fixed my first two backroutes, but I got two new solutions instead. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Ok, try this version now and see what solutions you get this time around.  I expect this is far from the last of the backroutes yet...... http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

Also, I'd like one or more people to actually run Simon's replay on the new version of level, and comment on whether it plays out to your expectations or not.

This level update also gives yet another reason to consider allowing objects be displayed in front of terrain as well as behind--you're actually forcing hidden traps on the level designers if they are always drawn behind terrain!  (Note: they're not actually hidden in my level, in fact they should be pretty easily spotted, but I wouldn't mind it more visible.)

[mobius]

here's another. Let me know if there's a better way to make the trick less obvious. I'm sure there's back routes, I even thought of a possible one but when I went to test it I forgot it. I added that decoration at the top but originally I kinda felt that especially after a bunch of levels that are 'full' or busy, I personally wouldn't mind seeing one that has a lot of emptiness. (just to change it up).
I couldn't find any good translations of this title in either google translate (not surprisingly) or a German dictionary I have.

you know, ccexplore, I think your levels are almost as devilish as Tseug's.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

you know, ccexplore, I think your levels are almost as devilish as Tseug's.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

 http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" /> For me, basically I feel I have very low artistic skills (one may even say negative http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />), so I kinda feel that I have to create hard levels, or else I fear it just won't be worth anyone's time.  I can tell you I do have at least one level idea I haven't worked on yet, that shouldn't be a hard level (relatively speaking), though it remains to be seen whether it's interesting enough or not for the set.  At least that one will be very easy to create if I do decide to go with it.

I do hope that getting myself to make more levels for this effort will at least eventually broaden my level-making abilities a little more.

[Nortaneous]

This probably isn't as hard as I was hoping the concept would be. Bah.

[mobius]

I can't play that level because of missing terrain. Do I need to download a newer version of Lix or something?

[Nortaneous]

You need geoo's abstract tileset: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43603680/abstract.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43603680/abstract.zip