Lix Community Level Set

[Proxima]

Time a bomber so he explodes in the bottom-left corner (but without breaking the far left wall). The second lemming builds over the gap, while the third bashes to the right from the bomb hole. In the original bubble terrain, the fourth and fifth lemmings will walk back and forth in the bash tunnel without climbing out. When the builder hits the ceiling and turns (on the original map he will have crossed the gap), make him a miner in the right place so the basher and miner both stop. The first lemming to head to the right (which should be the basher) must bomb under the trap trigger.

[ccexplore]

while the third bashes to the right from the bomb hole. In the original bubble terrain, the fourth and fifth lemmings will walk back and forth in the bash tunnel without climbing out.

I haven't looked or played that level at all.  But if I recall correctly, on original lo-res PC Lemmings, the bomber pit is 8 pixels deep, and the end of the basher tunnel has a tiny 1-pixel step up to the "wall" part of things, so in effect the step off of the end of tunnel would be 7 pixels deep.  6 pixels is the maximum a walker can get up, so I guess we are already pretty close to the tipping point already.  I can imagine how some subtle tiny graphical differences in how the end of the basher tunnel looks (for example) can change things so that it becomes possible to walk out the tunnel in Lix.

I suspect making the ground bumpier may help by allowing you to start bashing from a slightly lower position.  Assuming bumpier ground doesn't lead to some other backroute.  (Again, never looked at the level even once, so this is just a general suggestion.)

I'll leave it to Simon to decide whether this difference seems problematic enough to warrant making game-mechanics adjustments so that basher tunnel off bottom of a bomb pit is always inescapable even on flat ground.

[ccexplore]

I've updated both versions of "House of Flying Lixes" to try to eliminate the class of solutions (not bad, but not what I'm going for) I saw today on IRC, while minimizing changes.  Let's see how successful I am in that regard.

And yes, I know it's a little silly to keep putting out two versions that are almost identical.  On the other hand, at this point it might be somewhat of a giveaway if I modify A to earnestly get rid of B's solution.  Maybe after someone has solved either one......

[edit: rats, I forgot geoo's backroute actually saves more than required for A, so the changes are probably not enough for A anyway.  Guess I'll need more changes......]

[edit2: okay, try 'em now]

[edit3: levels http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=593.msg12791#msg12791" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">updated to fix Clam's backroute]

[Proxima]

I haven't looked or played that level at all.  But if I recall correctly, on original lo-res PC Lemmings, the bomber pit is 8 pixels deep, and the end of the basher tunnel has a tiny 1-pixel step up to the "wall" part of things, so in effect the step off of the end of tunnel would be 7 pixels deep.  6 pixels is the maximum a walker can get up, so I guess we are already pretty close to the tipping point already.  I can imagine how some subtle tiny graphical differences in how the end of the basher tunnel looks (for example) can change things so that it becomes possible to walk out the tunnel in Lix.

Indeed. I made a simple test level with a perfectly flat wall, and after one bomber, one basher, changing the RR to 1 so the lixes reached the basher at every possible stage of his animation, they all climbed out. So it looks like your suggestion may be the way to go for this level.

There are too many levels coming out for me to solve them all, let alone have time to design my own, but here are my solutions to TM's latest two. Both excellent levels!  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

[mobius]

Time a bomber so he explodes in the bottom-left corner (but without breaking the far left wall). The second lemming builds over the gap, while the third bashes to the right from the bomb hole. In the original bubble terrain, the fourth and fifth lemmings will walk back and forth in the bash tunnel without climbing out. When the builder hits the ceiling and turns (on the original map he will have crossed the gap), make him a miner in the right place so the basher and miner both stop. The first lemming to head to the right (which should be the basher) must bomb under the trap trigger.

Wouldn't it just be easier to let the first lemming fall into the pit and build out. The basher would continue to bash and stop when he comes through which should take longer than it takes to build out of the gap, in that instance you don't even need a miner. ---Well that's beside the point.
-Also I'll fix the fact that the gap is too wide anyway.

Indeed. I made a simple test level with a perfectly flat wall, and after one bomber, one basher, changing the RR to 1 so the lixes reached the basher at every possible stage of his animation, they all climbed out. So it looks like your suggestion may be the way to go for this level.

So in Lix bashing from a bomb hole doesn't trap them
I suppose making the terrain bumpy would help in this case but it would have to be inconsistently bumpy to work right? e.i. the ground to the left must be slightly lower, which might kinda give away the solution. Idk tho like I said, I never even thought of this solution, I had the second lemming mine then bash and one fell to his death before the builder was done and you save a bomb.

[ccexplore]

I suppose making the terrain bumpy would help in this case but it would have to be inconsistently bumpy to work right? e.i. the ground to the left must be slightly lower, which might kinda give away the solution.

Still haven't looked at the level.  I guess it depends on whether you want the Lix to be able to walk off the left side of the bomber pit or not?  If Lix doesn't have to be able to walk off the left side of the pit, I'm thinking that simply bombing at a slight dent into the ground (so slightly lower than average ground level) would be sufficient, it doesn't have to be a constant slope from left to right.  You can even have more such dents ahead in the path as long as there aren't too many, and there aren't that many Lixes milling about in the basher tunnel.

That said, unless the original level author has strong objections, it may well be okay or even desirable to make an alternate solution the main solution in the remake.

[mobius]

I'll fix it so the original solution is possible--somehow. I tend to always find an odd way of doing things so its very likely the intended solution is more noticeable.
-On another note about bombers; apparently the shape of the bomb hole differs depending on what the Lemming... "Lix" is doing when it explodes. When they blow up walking the shape resembles that of original lemmings but when they are mining the shape is more of a perfect circle. Maybe someone should make a topic here to discuss the rules and properties of this program more detailed.
-I was playing 'Get Hype' and almost solved it the third or fourth time but then after that I tried it 20 times and kept digging in the wrong spot & I got frustrated. I'm so terrible at precision moves, but why did it seem easy at first? Good level though, didn't mean to bash it. oh no, a pun...

[ccexplore]

I believe in this case it's worth trying to preserve the original solution, as it's not easy to spot, and using the in-progress bash tunnel as a crowd delaying tactic is a nice touch.

For players not used to Lemmings, it will definitely be even harder to spot now, given that Lix can escape in the analogous situation where the ground is perfectly flat.

==============

Anyway, I updated "House of Flying Lixes" to take care of Clam's backroute today.

[ccexplore]

-On another note about bombers; apparently the shape of the bomb hole differs depending on what the Lemming... "Lix" is doing when it explodes. When they blow up walking the shape resembles that of original lemmings but when they are mining the shape is more of a perfect circle. Maybe someone should make a topic here to discuss the rules and properties of this program more detailed.

Are you sure you got that right?  Actually in Lix there are 2 different types of bombers, a "non-flinging" bomber that works just like the classic L1 bomber, as well as a "flinging" bomber that works more like the L2 bomber, where nearby lemmings get "flung" into the air by the explosion.

It's easy to miss because the icons on the skill buttons are nearly identical (I made that point already in the feedback thread), with the flinging version having just a slightly larger explosion graphic, which is probably impossible to tell if you don't have the two graphics side by side to compare.  The flinging version's "bomb pit" left behind also has slightly larger and more circular shape compared to the non-fliging version.

The point is, it should not depend on what the lemmings was doing when he explodes.  If you really are seeing that then it's a bug in the game.  If what you are reporting is based on seeing things on two different levels, check to see whether the two levels are using the same type of bomber or not.

[Proxima]

I realised that, due to a slight difference between Lix and Cheapo gameplay, the intended solution to Behind Bars saves 7/10 on Lix, so this is now required.

I've also made an easier duplicate level -- geoo, you said you wanted to have an easy level with the climb/bomb trick, so how about this one? I know it can be done without the trick -- in fact, it can be solved without bombers at all -- but I think the trick is the easiest solution to spot. There are also some interesting challenge solutions available (save 5/10 ignoring one trapdoor; save 9/10 with one builder; save all).

[Nortaneous]

Finished version of that bluh level.

As for the Pieuw level, I thought this was the intended solution.

[Proxima]

I thought this one up in my sleep last night.

[mobius]

I fixed Pieuw's level. It should work well now, let me know if it doesn't. I haven't made any new levels lately I've been busy playing everybody else's. Thanks for the comments on mine.

Are you sure you got that right?  Actually in Lix there are 2 different types of bombers, a "non-flinging" bomber that works just like the classic L1 bomber, as well as a "flinging" bomber that works more like the L2 bomber, where nearby lemmings get "flung" into the air by the explosion.

Your right, I just overlooked that, there is no glitch.

[Proxima]

The bomb/bash part works fine, but I can't get the basher/miner mutual stopping to occur. (This may be a Lix problem rather than a fault in the level design....) Also, the backroute still works; you can prevent it by lowering the ledge under the gap, so that if you fall there, you can't get back up with the 2 given builders.

Here's another pair of Cheapo remakes. Yes, Too Close for Comfort is an execution puzzle, but I enjoy playing this level so it didn't feel right to leave it out. I've made it a little gentler than the Cheapo version (where all 20 builds were needed; I can do the remake in 16).

Also, Halfway Down the Stairs now requires 45/50 instead of 47. (48 is the max possible.) This lowered requirement makes possible an awesome challenge: do without the miner.

[Proxima]

Another level.