Xmas lemmings

[Geoff]

Hello and merry christmas.

Does anyone have the xmas lemmings sprites. or know where i can download them. I have looked everywere to no avail.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

[Simon]

Hey,

I don't think anyone has them easily available.

If you feel adventurous, you can try to hack on the DOS game's data files yourself. The sprites should be in MAIN.DAT. Here's a http://www6.camanis.net.ipv4.sixxs.org/lemmings/tools.php" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">collection of info on the different files and data types.

-- Simon

[Geoff]

I tried using idecomp, but couldn't view the extracted files, what does it extract them has?

I have all the ground and object graphics, but not the lemming graphics.

Is there a program that will extract them has a image file png, bmp, gif .. etc

[Simon]

ldecomp simply decompresses the DAT files into the game's native formats. Most of them are described in the other files on that site. I wrote tileset graphic extraction code myself, but I don't have any idea about the sprites.

<SimonN> do you have any idea about how DOS L1 saves its sprites? There's this post by Geoff which I can't answer with what I know
<geoo> Probably in the documentation Mindless and ccx wrote on main.dat
<SimonN> I linked him to that already
<SimonN> But if you don't know any more, it's fine, I'll just answer I consulted the sages and they oh-noed.
<geoo> not sure, did ccx and Mindless extract the sprites at some point
<geoo> if so, then they'd likely have some kind of tool available (but then again, in that case ccx would probably have posted already)

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

I don't remember for sure whether we have any tools written to do the kind of sprites extraction from main.dat that you're asking for.  I know Windows Lemmings came with a bitmap that has all the sprites, but that game obviously don't have the Xmas style graphics.  Similarly, at some point I did write a program to extract all graphics, including lemming sprites, from Mac Lemmings, but I don't have Mac version of Xmas Lemmings to run the program on (and not sure if you want that particular version anyhow).

Still, somehow I seem to recall that some program for main.dat extraction may have existed at some point, but I'm really not sure.  I'm pretty sure I never wrote one myself.  The closest thing that came to mind is a primitive program that tseug wrote back on the old old forums.  If I recall, it can display a single frame of sprite from main.dat, but only if you point it to the exact location within the file (more accurately, the location in the decompressed section), and specify the width, height, and number of bitplanes for the image.  Then the program can display it and you can attempt to extract it via screenshot that way.  I don't remember the name of the tool though or where it might be located on my old computer, and even then, you need other documentation on the layout of main.dat to make use of the program.  It'll obviously be a tedious affair.

I guess given the availability of documentation on main.dat, it's probably within my abilities to write a program for sprite extraction from main.dat, but I'm on holiday, so you'll have to excuse me if my mind's elsewhere. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

[Geoff]

Thanks for your replies, there is a guy called Chris lomont <a href="http://www.lomont.org/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">www.lomont.org</a> that wrote a program that extracts the levels and saves them has a bitmap (.png)

It also displays the object and lemming sprites animated within the program. but doesn't save them has a bitmap. i could probably try to screen shot them frame by frame but it would be tedious.

I have written a lemmings clone using blitz basic, Ive include all the holiday levels within the game and wanted the Xmas lemming sprites just for the holiday levels, to make it look more authentic.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4kmbst00xw5hvx7/Lemmins.zip?dl=0

[ccexplore]

I guess given the availability of documentation on main.dat, it's probably within my abilities to write a program for sprite extraction from main.dat

Okay, done.  Attached are the resulting sprites.  Since it's done by program I can provide in other formats (BMP, GIF, etc.) as well if necessary.  Let me know if they look right to you or not.

It looks like most of them are probably just palette swaps of the normal-style lemming sprites, so maybe you could've gotten quite far even without my help.  The walkers do look a little changed though with the hats, I think.  Again, let me know whether they match what you see in the actual game.

[Geoff]

Thank you very much for that ccexplore, your right about the palette swap. I did change the palette of the normal blue/green sprites using paint shop pro and tried myself animating a white pom pom on the hats, but the trial and error of trying to get it to look right was doing my head in.

Now i have the bitmaps you made will make it easier for me to animate the high res sprites im using for the game which i started in 2001 lol.

PS
The sprites are half the size to the ones i have. lemmix and lemmini also use the same sprites i have.
Not a problem i can resize them with paintshop.

[finlay]

I guess given the availability of documentation on main.dat, it's probably within my abilities to write a program for sprite extraction from main.dat

Okay, done.  Attached are the resulting sprites.  Since it's done by program I can provide in other formats (BMP, GIF, etc.) as well if necessary.  Let me know if they look right to you or not.

It looks like most of them are probably just palette swaps of the normal-style lemming sprites, so maybe you could've gotten quite far even without my help.  The walkers do look a little changed though with the hats, I think.  Again, let me know whether they match what you see in the actual game.

It's not just the walkers by any means; I can see pompoms on the builders and fallers as well, for instance. Plus, I recently used Lemmix to play a custom Xmas level, and instead of Christmas lemmings, I got palette-swapped normal lemmings with red jumpers, which looked quite different – I don't know why it did that, something to do with loading it from the Custlemm data file instead of the Xmas data file I guess. Similarly, when I played Flurry 8 I got palette-swapped Christmas lemmings with blue Santa suits. (I dunno if that's supposed to happen!) Yeah, it's mainly the hat, but they do look different.

[ccexplore]

It's not just the walkers by any means; I can see pompoms on the builders and fallers as well, for instance.

I finally just decide to fire up the game in DOSBox myself to check.  Fortunately the sprites are correctly extracted.  What threw me off was I didn't realize how subtle it was.  Turns out they are so skillful at doing animations with so few pixels, the pompom effect basically comes from a single white pixel!  This is the pixel for the "tip" of the pompom, and in animation you can see the tip swinging which makes it look convincing as a pompom.  Whereas if you just look at the individual frames however, it's a lot harder to make out the pompom.

Plus, I recently used Lemmix to play a custom Xmas level, and instead of Christmas lemmings, I got palette-swapped normal lemmings with red jumpers, which looked quite different – I don't know why it did that, something to do with loading it from the Custlemm data file instead of the Xmas data file I guess.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.  Actually, I think (haven't checked though!) on the real CustLemm program (ie. using DOSBox), you would not see the palette swap either, just regular-style lemmings.  I think Lemmix uses the palette in the graphics set to simplify matters, while the actual DOS games (I think) use a hard-coded palette build into the game itself for the lemmings.  In most cases the two matches but as you see, there are a few exceptions.

Similarly, when I played Flurry 8 I got palette-swapped Christmas lemmings with blue Santa suits. (I dunno if that's supposed to happen!)

I'll have to check on DOSBox later today (anyone got the password for that level?).  I want to say "no" but I'm not 100% sure.  The blue Santa suits would happen if the game takes the palette from the graphics set (which for that level is the ONML "rock" set rather than the usual Xmas graphics set) instead of a hard-coded one in the game itself.

[Simon]

(anyone got the password for that level?).

http://www6.camanis.net.ipv4.sixxs.org/lemmings/codes.php" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Codes for Holiday 93 and 94.

-- Simon

[finlay]

Here's what happens on DOSBox. No, I'm as surprised as you are. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

Compare and contrast with the third screenshot, taken in Lemmix.

(I can sort of tell what's going on here – the pallette for the tileset is only so big, and they have to prioritise either the colour of the Lemmings' shirts (red) or the colour of the sky (blue). Both ways use the Christmas sprites. It comes off worse when the sky is changed to red, IMO, but it's an interesting effect)

[ccexplore]

Cool.  Actually from a technical point of view it's not too surprising to me at all.  In the normal graphics of the ONML rock set, the blue used in those objects are the same blues used for the Lemmings.  But most of the Lemming sprites are stored such that only the first 4 colors of the palette can be used for the sprites, so they'd have to swap some colors in the Xmas palette to get the Lemmings red, and clearly they swapped red and blue.  As a side effect the swap also affected the objects.  You see a similar effect in the special graphics levels, where the palette used by the special graphics overrides the normal one, resulting in altered colors for the entrance and exit objects.

This also confirms that the game always have its own copy of the palette for the first 7 of the 16 colors supported by the video mode used, and does not load from the graphics set for those 7 colors, unlike Lemmix.

[finlay]

Me neither. I really am as surprised as you are. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

(Anyway, is it really only 16 colours? Why on earth did the Mac version have to demand that you set the colour depth to 8-bit/256 all the time? It's good for the computers of the time, where it'd force you off of the crappy 16 colours, but a bit annoying for anything that came later and could support 16 or 32-bit, and you'd have to piss around changing it to 256 before loading the game... Grrr http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> )

[ccexplore]

(Anyway, is it really only 16 colours?

For the DOS version, yes.  The hardware at the time actually can support 256, but I think they wanted to target low-end systems as well, so that's probably why they wound up using one of the 16-color video modes instead (in contrast, DOS Lemmings 2 do use the 256 color mode).  DOS Lemmings even support more primitive PC video cards at the time like the CGA, which only has 4-color video modes for graphics, and doesn't even allow you to pick which colors are in the palette!

The Mac versions are all 256 AFAIK.

Why on earth did the Mac version have to demand that you set the colour depth to 8-bit/256 all the time?

Lomax for Windows actually have a similar problem as well and forces you to use 16-bit graphics modes (although this really do seem like laziness on their part, as Windows support having a full-screen game change the video mode themselves to whatever the graphics card supports).  Basically these games are programmed for a specific graphics mode only, this way they can simplify the programming and get better performance.

Fortunately the 24-bit/32-bit graphics modes have become sort of a common standard quite a while ago (basically it's at the point where photographs and movies look decent), so this kind of problem has mostly stopped happening except for fairly old games.