Reverse levels level pack

[Minim]

- if the exit trigger was fully buried in terrain (ie. requires terrain removal to expose the trigger for use), then the corresponding entrance must be placed such that lemmings come out stuck inside the terrain.  I would actually go as far as to say that the lemmings should come out at a vertical position ("position" as defined by Simon's definition of "effective coordinate" in http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=569.msg11921#msg11921" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">this post) that's within the y range of the exit trigger, or lower if necessary for them to start stuck.

Oh dear. I've just noticed the difference between the reverse of Havoc 15 and Havoc 19, the only two levels that have buried entrances:

On 15, the lemmings can jump out onto the landing area, whereas in 19 they are stuck. Should 15 be remade so that the lemmings get stuck as well? If so, I'll have to re-check to see if that level is possible again.

Edit: Doesn't matter too much, because I've confirmed that it's still possible.

[Clam]

I'm happy to make the Holiday levels, unless someone's working on those already.

One question: For Blitz 3 ('Check your hints', the level with the fake exits), would it make more sense to:
1: Replace every exit with an entrance (note than only the first 4 in z-order will work), or
2: Replace only the real exit with an entrance, and delete the rest.

Right now I'm leaning towards #2.

[finlay]

I'd say it's up to you; either is a valid interpretation of the level. When I did the ONML levels, it was very formulaic: every single entrance object was given the new ID of 0 and moved to the ground, and every single exit object was given the new ID of 1 and often moved away from the ground a bit. Under that system, it would be converting every exit object to an entrance object... but I see what you mean – it looks like you can't have a fake entrance simply by giving it a higher 'index' number.

Incidentally, on my Lemmix on the forward level, I can have the lemmings exit via the first exit on the left as well as the 8th or whichever one it's meant to be... Is that supposed to happen?

[Clam]

I think I will just go with one entrance, where the real exit is in the original. In the forward level, you have to go from the entrance to the 7th exit, so it makes sense that the reverse level should make you go from the 7th exit to the entrance.

The leftmost exit working a known bug, IIRC the original level has a gap in the index (z-coordinates) of objects. Lemmix doesn't handle this correctly, it bumps the leftmost exit to z=15, which causes it to have a working trigger. Interestingly, the second exit (z=16) seems to work here too, despite the trigger area not being displayed, I'm pretty sure this is another bug.

In other index-related quirkiness, on Flurry 3 the entrance is at z=18 (thanks to all the decorations http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />), so I had to change that in order to get a real exit.

[Clam]

All done! The reverse holiday levels are attached.


A few level-specific notes:

Blitz 3: As mentioned above, I decided to discard the fake exits and swap the real one only.
Blitz 12: The exit is buried when placed as high as possible, feel free to un-bury it before playing.
Blitz 14: The original has a buried exit, so I moved the entrance to land you exactly where the top of the exit trigger was.
Frost 3: The left exit is buried in the original level, so I moved that entrance down so the lemmings get stuck.
Frost 8: I put the left entrance at ground level to give you as much time as possible.

[ccexplore]

One question: For Blitz 3 ('Check your hints', the level with the fake exits), would it make more sense to:

A little late to the discussion, but as you noted yourself, only 4 of the entrances would work with option 1, so option 2 would make more sense to me.

If you want to fake all but one entrance, you can simply put 4 overlapping copies of entrance objects for the real one, then the rest (with higher indices than those 4) will be fake.  It would look weird though IMO.

[Luis]

In Lemmini, Just Dig! only needs one builder, but I know these levels are mostly being tested in Lemmix, since that's where the real physical is. I startled making videos of these.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2lRedgAHcg#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Lemmings Reverse Just Dig!

[finlay]

Wait, what? You used two builders there, along with 10 climbers and a basher.

Also, that doesn't look much like Lemmini, with the toolbar from DOS lemmings and all...

[Luis]

The video is based on Lemmix. I was only saying that "Just Dig!" in Lemmini doesn't need two builders, since that game works differently. I don't know how to run Lemmini in full screen, so I wouldn't make videos of it.

[finlay]

Lemmix doesn't need two builders either. It's possible that you need 2 for 100%, but you don't need 2 to beat the level, because you only need to save one lemming.

(Remember to add skills to the level before you play it)

Also, by the looks of your video of Fun 4, you've been playing it with Lemmix's Custom Lemmings mode with the faulty fall height (is it possible to change that to the correct fall height, by the way?), because your lemmings aren't dying from falling off the pink entrance platform. (and you haven't been using the same version as the rest of us, because yours has water at the bottom)

[Luis]

The file I was using is the one in the first post that minimac has. I added the water in Fun 4 because the level doesn't look good without it.

[ccexplore]

The file format is the same across the various PC versions of the game, but there are subtle differences in game mechanics.  That's why it is important to pick the right style to use when playing levels in Lemmix.  Lemmix has no way to tell a level should be played with Lemmings mechanics vs ONML vs Customized Lemmings etc. since all of them share the same file format for levels and levelpaks.

[Luis]

So where do I find the right Fun4?  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/huh.gif" alt="???" title="Huh?" class="smiley" />

[Clam]

You have the right level (the one attached to the first post in this topic), you just need to open it using the right mode:

• If you're playing a Lemmings level, use 'Dos Original Lemmings' mode
• If you're playing an ONML level, use 'Dos OhNo! More Lemmings' mode
• If you're playing a Xmas or Holiday Lemmings level, use 'Dos Holiday 94' mode (I think 91, 92, 93 and 94 use the same mechanics, so you can use any of those four)
  
  This challenge uses modified levels, which confuses things, but to ensure we're doing the challenge right, it's best to use the same mechanics that the level originally used.

[finlay]

The file format is the same across the various PC versions of the game, but there are subtle differences in game mechanics.  That's why it is important to pick the right style to use when playing levels in Lemmix.  Lemmix has no way to tell a level should be played with Lemmings mechanics vs ONML vs Customized Lemmings etc. since all of them share the same file format for levels and levelpaks.

Is it possible to manually change the mechanics for CustLemm played via Lemmix so that it uses the correct fall height?