Reverse levels level pack

[Minim]

Hello everyone.

During the weekend I have created a bunch of levels where the exit and the entrance have swapped places. (And if you really want to know, the exits have been snapped to ground, otherwise it might look like a WTF level. Here along with this post are the downloads for the Fun and Tricky set, with 15 levels split into four level packs. I couldn't manage to get all 120 levels in one folder because my WinZip trial expired, and it costs a fortune to buy the full version. If you are interested in this idea I can give you the Taxing and Mayhem levels too, and if this gets popular we might do OhNo and Xmas. We'll see...

But anyway, it should be ideal for creating challenges (Well, not Fun 8 though, as this level is now cakewalk http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />) so I can allow you posting challenges related to reverse levels (e.g. "what levels can be solved in reverse?" and "if the level is not possible, how many more skills would to need to solve it?") I hope you enjoy this level pack.

Edit: Due to problem fixing, some of the downloads may be reset.

[Simon]

Yes, this is an excellent standard reference for such challenges. There is some leeway/choice in the object placement otherwise.

The best challenges are probably Tame. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />

A good archive/compression tool is http://www.7-zip.org/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">7-zip. It's free/libre software, and supports all common formats.

-- Simon

[finlay]

I think of all the training levels, only Fun 7 can be completed with the standard skillset. The others seem to all need builders.

I'll start some off; obviously, I'm not very good with pixel placement and glitches, so a lot of these could be improved massively. I'll go for 100% if I can.

Fun 1: Can't be solved with diggers only; can be solved with 10 climbers, 2 builders and 1 basher for 100%, or 1 climber, 2 builders and 1 basher for 10%
Fun 2: Can't be solved with floaters only; can be solved with the addition of 8 builders (8 builders+10 floaters for 100%, 8 builders only for 10%)

If you allow unlimited extra skillage, I'm sure there'd be a way to use a Tame 20-style glitch on these, but I'm really crap at pulling off the dig+bash routine so I'm not going to attempt it.

Fun 3: Can't be solved with blockers only; can be solved with the addition of 12 builders (I used 12 builders and 4 blockers – this is almost certainly beatable. I got 90% because I let a lemming fall off the screen by accident http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/embarrassed.gif" alt=":-[" title="Embarrassed" class="smiley" />)

[finlay]

Fun 4: can be solved with the addition of 4 builders and 1 basher – one tricky thing about this level is that the pink column where the entrance now is is at a death-drop height and you need to mine a bit to get the lemmings off it, but then you need another digging skill to get to the chamber with the exit.
Fun 5: needs 1 builder to get up to the ramp, and then can be solved with 2 bashers – I think; the lemming kept turning around because there's a 1-pixel ledge that he jumps up to where you have to make him a basher to go through the rock; and I ended up just using 3 in the end.
Fun 6: can be solved with defaults+3 builders, as in the screenshot.
Fun 7: first solvable level; I can do it in 4 builders for 100%. You only need to build over the pit, though, which makes it different from the real level. According to the Challenges thread, the real level can be solved for 100% with 2 builders, suggesting one to get up onto the ledge and one for over the pit, but IIRC this involves release rate jiggery pokery, and wouldn't be possible starting from the top.
Fun 8: Solvable with no skills!
Fun 9: 1 blocker, 1 basher for 98%. Can't think of a way to do 100% unless you build up to the wall on the right or something, and even then space is at a bit of a premium.

[Clam]

This would be best saved for the inevitable challenge topic, but Fun 5 can be solved without the addition of any more skills, thanks to the basher-ramp technique mentioned here (under 'bashers').

EDIT: attached a replay.

[finlay]

This would be best saved for the inevitable challenge topic, but Fun 5 can be solved without the addition of any more skills, thanks to the basher-ramp technique mentioned here (under 'bashers').

I'll take your word for it. I'm not going to bother attempting because it'd probably just enrage me or something. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />

Continuing:
Fun 10: 100% with 20 climbers, 6 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger as in the screenshot. Fewer builders are probably possible with this method, although it could be done using blockers, which would definitely require fewer builders – I think it should be 2 to get up to the column, but with the digger trap where it is, you don't quite touch the column by digging from its edge. Perhaps a good challenge for this level would be to use no climbers?

Fun 11: 1 basher. In some ways it'd almost be more fun to see if we could complete this level while also reversing the arrows.

Fun 12: 1 blocker, 3 builders, 1 miner, 1 basher for 98%. Again, this can almost certainly be improved upon skills-wise, but like Fun 9, I'm going to leave it up to you to determine whether it's possible to get 100% – you have to block so as the lemmings don't die, because at RR 99 they're coming out too fast to do another trick like a digger trap.

Fun 13: Like Fun 1, impossible with diggers. I'm not going to do this one just now, but if you add extra skills you could probably play around with the ledge to the west of the exit to get up.

Fun 14: The major difference with this level is that you have to get to the upper level for the exit, but otherwise it is fairly similar to the real version, and I'm fairly confident that you could adapt most solutions to the reversed version. For a start, I've been able to do it with the simplistic solution of 7 builders and 3 bashers, so maybe try beating that.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

Fun 15: You can use the structure on the right to help save 100%. I managed with 15 builders, 4 bashers and 3 diggers. Again, less is certainly possible; you can use fewer builders by bashing through the three pillars individually rather than bashing under them like I did.

Fun 16: I did it for non-100% with 5 builders, 2 blockers and 1 bomber. I'm fairly sure 100% is possible if you use a digger trap or something (it's not like Fun 9 & 12 where the RR 99 makes this impossible), but you would have to use more builders. I'd like to know if 4 builders is possible, however: can you reach the platform with one builder from the final spike? IIRC, it's possible the other way round, but here we would have to make sure that the builder and platform connect.

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Fun 17: reasonably simple to get 100% with 1 blocker, 6 builders, 3 bashers, replay attached. However, I did do the thing of bashing through the bridge and building over it later, so if you didn't do that I'm confident it could be completed with 5 builders/2 bashers.

Fun 18: Not possible with defaults, but should be possible with extra builders. I attempted it but gave up after I ended up selecting a few too many builders going the wrong way when I had the crowd all concentrated in one chamber.

Fun 19: Quite fun, if you excuse the pun. 4 builders, 3 diggers, 1 basher attached.

Fun 20: 7 bashers, 3 builders, 2 diggers, 1 miner attached. Probably possible with less.

Fun 21: 6 builders, 4 bashers, 1 digger attached

Fun 22: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 1 digger if you bash under all the trees – or you can complete the level using only bashers if you bash through each tree. No bashers is probably possible too, especially if you use miners, and there's probably a "high road" solution too, ie "don't touch the ground", which would be easier to execute than it would have been on the previous version of the level.

Fun 23 is demonstrably wrong, however! You're missing the Hidden Entrance, and you seem to have accidentally deleted the 0 from the 20 floater provision.

[Minim]

Fun 23 is demonstrably wrong, however! You're missing the Hidden Entrance, and you seem to have accidentally deleted the 0 from the 20 floater provision.

Whoops! I have fixed the problem (and to prevent the problem recurring, reset the download too). I also added the placement of the hidden entrance to Taxing 17 so that this problem won't happen there.

It is quite interesting explaining the subtle differences to each level. At some point in the game you may come across a choice of exits (Or, if you're playing the Prison, a double entrancer).

Fun 9: 1 blocker, 1 basher for 98%. Can't think of a way to do 100% unless you build up to the wall on the right or something, and even then space is at a bit of a premium.

I had no trouble getting 100% on that level. I even managed to solve the repeated version too. Replay attached will show you how to release the blocker when on a thin platform.

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haha basically i just missed a trick.  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/embarrassed.gif" alt=":-[" title="Embarrassed" class="smiley" />

The fixed Fun 23 is also quite fun to play – i've attached a replay to show that it's possible to complete on 100%, but I've not tried to optimize my skill usage. I've ended up using 20 climbers, 1 blocker, 11 builders, 15 bashers, 5 miners and 1 digger. I'm fairly sure better could be done. It's worth noting that you can ignore 2 of the entrances on this level and still pass, as the requirement is 25%.

Fun 24 has become a boring hero/builder level – it took me 13 builders and no other skills. Mayhem 4 definitely won't be completable. It may be possible to finish the level with the minimum 66% (ie 20 lemmings) with your 20 climbers and use fewer builders.

Fun 25 is completable to 97% – had the same trouble with blockers and RR 99 as before, although this time you really can't dig to release the buggers. So I did 2 blockers, 3 builders and 4 bashers. You can probably reduce the number of bashers by utilising direct drop, in which case you'd use 2 blockers, 4 builders and 1 basher (or digger/miner, whatever, just to stop the guy building!)

Fun 26 is cool, because it is reminiscent of the solution to the original level. And a previously-decorative trap is suddenly ominous and threatening. I used 9 builders, 1 climber and 3 bashers. Could almost certainly reduce those numbers.

OK, stopping now because it's getting late, but I'll note a couple of things from the rest of the Fun and beginning of the Tricky set:
Fun 30 - omg... I'm now wondering if someone'll be able to Tame-20 that level or use the slider glitch, I have to say...

It's funny how levels that used to be boring builder levels are now piss-easy and vice-versa. For instance, Tricky 8 now only requires 4 (or maybe 3) builders to pass (where the entrance is now it is impossible not to lose 1, however, because if you get him to build as soon as he lands he will hit his feet on the ledge and turn back, which may mean that the "King of the Castle" is unpassable – I can't remember if you're allowed to lose any lemmings in that level, maybe 1 or 2 though which would be alright). You can also use a blocker on the Tricky level if 2 lemmings turn around, in order that you still only lose 1. After getting up that initial ledge, they'll simply walk to the exit.

Similarly, on Tricky 11 you only need 1 miner to get down to the exit, unlike the many builders that you normally need to get up (that said, I'm aware of the no-builder solution to the normal Tricky 11). The Mayhem equivalent would be good to see, though, because I think the only terrain removal skills are bombers – but I don't think you get floaters, so it may be impossible to get down from the top without adding skills.

Also, Bitter Lemming is quite fun. Where you've put the entrance, you don't need floaters. I found a quick-and-dirty solution that involves 1 digger (to make a trap), 3 builders (one to stop the digger, 2 to build up to the wall), and 50 climbers. There is almost certainly a solution that involves no climbers, though, because you could build to the left and bash through. Again, not sure if the Mayhem level could be completed, as I don't think you have enough builders or digging skills – there most of the skills are floaters, which we don't need anymore.

[Minim]

I'll give out the Taxing and Mayhem reverse levels anyway, because Taxing 25 has turned out to be a world-class puzzler. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />  Mayhem 28 may also be worth doing too.

[ccexplore]

Reverse Fun 30 has wrong RR, it should be 10 not 99.

[ccexplore]

Tricky 8 now only requires 4 (or maybe 3) builders to pass (where the entrance is now it is impossible not to lose 1, however, because if you get him to build as soon as he lands he will hit his feet on the ledge and turn back

Watch and learn.  (Consult the "non-glitch tricks" thread if still confused.)

I agree, we definitely should start a bunch of challenge threads with these reverse levels.

[finlay]

I'll give out the Taxing and Mayhem reverse levels anyway, because Taxing 25 has turned out to be a world-class puzzler. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />  Mayhem 28 may also be worth doing too.

Cool. I've confirmed that Mayhem 19 is possible (I had doubt about it last night in my previous post) – kinda proud of it in some ways. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/winktounge.gif" alt=";P" title="Wink-Tongue" class="smiley" />

also mayhem 28 is possible but it's hard to build up to that diagonal wall near the exit. I only just had enough builders in the end.

[Minim]

Reverse Fun 30 has wrong RR, it should be 10 not 99.

Whoops! That's another mistake well spotted.

I also discovered that I added a 0 on the number of minutes in Tricky 10, meaning that there are 80 minutes. That problem has now been fixed and I will (although it's quite annoying considering how many downloads there were in the past) reupload the download for RevTri1.dat.

[Clam]

Question: how are you deciding how high off the ground to place the entrances? I noticed on some levels (eg. 'we all fall down', 'just a minute') that the entrance is a long way up, so if you dig under the entrance (which seems a good idea on these levels), the lemmings start splatting.