Worst port of Lemmings?

[Adam]

Okay, today, I played the NES port of Lemmings, and it is, by far the worst version of Lemmings I have ever played.

Compared to the other 8-bit options, the game has virtually no redeeming factors whatsoever.. sloppy controls, terrible graphics, crap music, very few sound effects and gameplay which is enough to make you want to hit somebody over the head with a hammer.

However, is there a worse port which may cause me to go on a murderous rampage? If so, what is it?

[Mr. K]

Don't quote me on this because it's been years since I played it, but the original B&W Game Boy version could be worse.  I think it was pretty much the NES version, except with a far smaller screen size, and no color.  So yeah, it can get worse!

[ccexplore]

Okay, today, I played the NES port of Lemmings, and it is, by far the worst version of Lemmings I have ever played.

Compared to the other 8-bit options, the game has virtually no redeeming factors whatsoever.. sloppy controls, terrible graphics, crap music, very few sound effects and gameplay which is enough to make you want to hit somebody over the head with a hammer.

I think a good deal of it can be blamed on the NES itself.  I don't think its graphics system is well-equipped to handle the per-pixel logic of true lemmings mechanics, so the mechanics are re-implemented so that all terrain updates happen on cell boundaries, rather than arbitrary pixel positions.  I don't know enough about the technical specs of the NES to rule out that an ingenious enough developer can't find a way around the limitations and implement true pixel-level mechanics, but I suspect it's reasonable to say that it was apparently not worth anyone's money to try to do a better job on that console.

And yes, the gameboy version is pretty similar to NES, so if you're objecting to NES's graphics, music and sound (which isn't going to blow anyone away but at the same time, I'm not sure what more to expect from NES?), you can't possibly be any happier with GameBoy either. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" class="smiley" />

================

To be clear, it is by design that the NES version forces all skills to take place on cell boundaries.  Thus you will find that when you assign a skill, it will only take place after the lemming has walked further and reached the next cell boundary.  I'm guessing that's what you experienced as "sloppy controls"?

[Mr. K]

Yeah, it's technical limitations.  I'd say that it draws the terrain as a background, which is the only way to do it because the NES can't handle a lot of sprites.  Now, when you have a background, you are limited to 8x8 tiles-- you can't just place your backgrounds anywhere.  That's why, for instance in the NES version, the sloped areas in Just Dig are only at 45 degree angles.  So digging and stuff must adhere to and modify the 8x8s that are there.  Indeed it cannot handle any smaller units than that-- then it would have to calculate how much of each tile was overlapped, modify each tile, and then as a result have graphics for each "partial tile" that has been dug through (instead of a universal "blank/dug through" tile), which would have exponentially raised the amount of storage needed for the game, and thus the price.  And NES games had to be cheap when the NES version of Lemmings came out-- the system was in its twilight.

To be honest, they did a decent job when you look at what they had to work with.

[ccexplore]

I'm wondering now, not knowing much about SMS or Game Gear, are those systems advanced enough (compared to NES/GameBoy) that they can handle per-pixel terrain changes as opposed to cell-based?  Asking Mr. K since he seems to know quite a bit about this.

[Ron_Stard]

I'm wondering now, not knowing much about SMS or Game Gear, are those systems advanced enough (compared to NES/GameBoy) that they can handle per-pixel terrain changes as opposed to cell-based?  Asking Mr. K since he seems to know quite a bit about this.

I don't know very much about the bowels of Master System, but I have played that version ad nauseum during my childhood, and I have to say it is a complete jewel  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" /> : The graphics are incredible, the movement of the Lemmings is smooth, and the control is not bad (although a Pause button on the Control Pad would have been very nice). However, some of the levels are way too easy compared with the Amiga & DOS originals (Just A Minute - Part One & Two are RIDICULOUS), so with regard to challenges, I think the SMS version should be bear in mind in a list of Worst Ports Of Lemmings.

[Adam]

The Master System is the version I've spent most time playing, and my only real criticism is the lack of difficulty.

There are some levels - like Just a Minute - which are waay too easy for their position. Others are fairly difficult, but there are no levels which stand out as being difficult enough to cause major problems.

However, the challenges presented in trying to 100% levels make up for this. Between us, Pooty and I have managed to 100% nearly all the levels (although he's done most of the harder levels!).

The gameplay is so much smoother than the NES. There is a little bit of lag from time to time, but nothing to cause major issues.

The pause button's position does cause issues, and quite often, the game will crash when you're fumbling for the pause button, but that's a flaw with the Master System itself.

I'd like to add the SEGA levels to the mix of ridiculous levels. SEGA ONE, SEGA TWO and SEGA FIVE are all pathetically easy (especially seeing as these are all repeated in Mayhem with very little change to the solution). SEGAs THREE and FOUR are a little bit harder, but they're still not difficult.

I do like how the Master System has its own set of glitches.. its glitches are pretty fun to exploit. There's a great glitch which can turn fire on the ground into terrain, and another glitch which allows you to build on the flamethrower.

But, if I had to pick an 8-bit version to play, it'd be the Master System version.

[Pooty]

The Master System renders its graphics in a tile-based manner, similar to the NES. However, the Master System version of Lemmings minimizes waste of the limited VRAM it has to allow per-pixel logic.

When the game loads a level, it decides which tiles from the tileset it needs to properly render the level (including the trapdoor and exit), then truncates the remainder. For example, Just Dig loads 93 tiles from the 256-tile tileset.

246 spaces in the system's tilemap are allocated to the terrain, so Just Dig has 153 spaces remaining (246 - 93). This free space is highlighted yellow in the attached image.

When a lemming causes an action that would destroy part of the original terrain (such as digging) or if the lemming is building, the affected tiles are copied to a new location in the tilemap, and the game modifies these new tiles.

There is, of course, limited space, and this may cause problems. In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzB67zAFYkc" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Adam's Tricky 13 video, if you fast forward to 7:10, you'll see what happens when the system runs out of memory. However, if you play the game normally, you are very unlikely to ever run into this problem.

[ccexplore]

There is, of course, limited space, and this may cause problems. In http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzB67zAFYkc" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Adam's Tricky 13 video, if you fast forward to 7:10, you'll see what happens when the system runs out of memory. However, if you play the game normally, you are very unlikely to ever run into this problem.

Interesting. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" /> I guess it also depends on how much smaller they have made the size of the levels, since if I understand correctly, it would seem that even something simple like bashing through a long wall can eventually run out of the reserved tilemap space?

But yeah, I guess as long as they are careful in the design of the level, and assuming reasonable, normal play, they can greatly minimize the chance of hitting the memory limitations. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

How does this compare with NES's technical specs?  Is the NES's memory for tilemaps much more limited, or is it just a case that they decide to go cheap and didn't bother to be clever?

[Pooty]

Yep, bashing long walls is a major space guzzler, mainly because the bashing height is greater than 8 pixels. The game "cleans up" tiles that have been entirely blanked out by bashing / mining / digging / bombing.

It's clear that they had to redesign some levels due to the limitation. SEGA Four had changed a lot between beta and release. They got rid of some scenery pipes to save space, and dramatically shortened the wall beneath the exit.

As for the NES, it can store at least as many tiles in the VRAM as the Master System can, so it might be capable. However, I haven't seen a game where a tile image has been edited on the fly like SMS Lemmings does. Also, the NES has a slower processor. This makes it hard to say if a per-pixel logic system is practical / possible on the NES unless somebody gives it a go.

[Edit: Oops, forgot to edit the cursors out of the Beta screenshot. Oh well, ignore them. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/tongue.gif" alt=":P" title="Tongue" class="smiley" />]

[Mr. K]

Thanks for covering me on the SMS stuff, Pooty, that's more than I knew.  I just remembered some NES stuff off my head from when I was attempting and failing to learn how to program for it.  It could be possible that the NES could have done as decent of a job as the SMS version, but we'll never really know.  It could just be related to the skill of the programming team.  Sunsoft did the Nintendo conversions, but the SMS/GG version was done by Sega and Probe Entertainment according to the title screen credits.  Different companies, different results.  Another thing to note, as I did before: it may just have been general effort-- the NES conversion made it out in 1993 and the NES was on life support in the US.  The SNES had been out for two years and only a few more games were released for the NES after Lemmings.  On the other hand, the SMS was doing great in Europe for years and years despite the Mega Drive being around, so there would be a lot more motivation for Probe (a British company) to program a really top-notch conversion like they did.  Hell, later they even ported Mortal Kombat down to the SMS, which I've never played but apparently turned out surprisingly well for an 8-bit conversion.  These guys seem to have known what they were doing.

[Adrian060756]

I remember playing the SEGA Master System version this one time and on level 15 of FUN I decided to build this huge, long bridge which would start right at the edge of the declining steps to the bottom of the screen after the third column and end right before the exit house. As I recall upon the Lemming building the bridge, for whatever reason halfway through the building he stopped and turned around, when he came back again I still couldn't command him to finish building the uncompleted bridge and also no other skill could be commmanded to any Lemming. I ended up with no choice but to blow them all up and try again and on my second go at the level all the skills were selectable again and could be commanded to any Lemming.

A memory issue with the rom http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" />? I never knew that until now, very interesting.

[Mike Rosoft]

I remember playing Lemmings on ZX Spectrum. Looking back, I judge the port a valiant effort, but ultimately a futile one due to the computer's limitations.

Spectrum only lets you put two colors ("ink" and "paper") in each 8x8 square of the screen. For that reason, the game had to be in monochrome. Steel and traps were cut from the game (though water can be seen in a few levels). A few levels were broken somewhat; e.g. in "Just dig" lemmings can't survive falling from the top of the level towards the exit, in "Don't do anything too hasty" you can't just build towards the exit - you have to fall onto one of the spikes. Worst of all, you can't move the cursor while the game is paused!


Mike Rosoft