Lemmix

[EricLang]

I'm currently writing a new Lemmix program (player and editor).
(For those who don't know: look at http://ericenzwaan.nl/eric/lemmings/lemmix.htm" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://ericenzwaan.nl/eric/lemmings/lemmix.htm)
It will have it's own file formats and abandon the old dos files.
There will be a conversion tool for known versions (all dos versions, lemmini, winlemmings, and I hope for tribes lemmings)
It will be possible to extend the game by writing addons.
However to make the new program as complete as possible it would be nice to inculde all available lemmingstates for all known lemming games.

Of course I have these ones:
Walking, Jumping, Digging, Climbing, Drowning, Hoisting, Building, Bashing, Mining, Falling, Floating, Splatting, Exiting, Vaporizing
Blocking, Shrugging, Ohnoing, Exploding.

Is there someone who has or can make a complete overview of other states (and skills like climber and floater) in other games like in the Tribes game?

[Clam]

Hey, Eric! Good to see you're still around. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" class="smiley" />

The Lemmings Encyclopedia has http://tle.vaarties.nl/lemmings2/gameplay/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">a list of skills and game elements in Lemmings 2, which you should be able to work through and find all the possible lemming states.

[bombsite]

Hi Eric, I've been using Lemmix recently whilst trying to create my own Lemmings clone in JS and it's been a great help  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" />

I presume as Lemmix is still available and you're still continuing to develop it that you've never had any legal problems like some other Lemmings clones?

[EricLang]

Never had a problem with legal stuff.
Thanks Clam Spammer. I will list these actions and skills from that site.
Lemmix clone and editor is still available from the mentioned site yes.

[ccexplore]

Is there someone who has or can make a complete overview of other states (and skills like climber and floater) in other games like in the Tribes game?

I doubt you'll find a comprehensive such list for a while, but you're welcome to try to make one yourself using information on the web.  If you download the game from abandonia, remember that you can use the practice levels to try out all skills (except blocker, but you already know what that does).  Keep in mind that a single skill can encompass multiple states, just like how for example a climbing lemming transitions to "hoisting" when it reaches the top.

Oh, and don't expect me to disassemble the game programming for Lemmings 2 any time soon if ever.  Sorry, but 50+ skills is just a bit much compared with 8, plus the skills in Lemmings 2 are clearly more sophisticated in general, and therefore takes more work to disassemble and understand.  You'll have to go the old-fashion way for now of emulating via obsevation and trial+error.

Incidentally, I think most people can agree that there are too many frivilous skills in Lemmings 2, so I don't think you necessarily need to go for implementing every one of them, unless you're dead set on recreating every single Lemmings 2 level.

[EricLang]

I have played Lemmings 2 long long time ago and do not remember much of it.
A special puzzle - programatically - is the relation between "skill" and "state".
I don't expect a complete disassemble of course...
All Lemmings 2 levels are on my wishlist though. Future thingy...
Currently I'm just setting up the system, so details will come later.

[finlay]

To be honest, and mainly for selfish reasons, I really think you should stick with the DOS formats, at least for custom levels in regular original Lemmings styles. It's just that this way keeps compatibility with Custlemm and stuff. I'd hate to see the day when only levels in the new Lemmix format are produced and I'm left hanging because my computer is a mac and can't run Lemmix or Lemmini...

[ccexplore]

I'd hate to see the day when only levels in the new Lemmix format are produced and I'm left hanging because my computer is a mac and can't run Lemmix or Lemmini...

Hmm, I've always thought Lemmini, as it is written in Java, should be platform-independent, but it's quite possible I remembered wrong since I haven't really played it much.

Perhaps Eric could make his conversion tools such that it's possible to convert Lemmix-format levels back to DOS formats if the level only contains elements and styles available to DOS?

Anyway, it probably won't ever be the case that "only levels in the new Lemmix format are produced".  Consider Cheapo for example which was popular a few years (decade?) back, there were certainly lots of Cheapo levels produced that were not available in any form for CustLemm, yet that hasn't completely killed the CustLemm format either.  If anything CustLemm has outlived Cheapo. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

[EricLang]

Conversion of dos-like levels back to dosformats will probably be possible.
Another option could be to try and compile the program with FreePascal (Delphi clone), which is crossplatform.

The range of game-possibilities is much wider, when I leave the old restrictions.

[EricLang]

For example leaving the "graphic set" restriction will enable to mix tiles and objects of different styles.
Tiles and objects will still be named something like brick_001, crystal_005 etc.
This adds something to the game and removes nothing.

Furthermore the level can be saved in two ways:
1) containing only metadata: all needed graphics are stored somewhere else.
2) containing ALL information to play a game (tiles, objects, texts, lemminganimations, cursors etc.). When compressed the size will be (educated guess) 50-100 KB.

[EricLang]

First thing I am going to make is my new editor.
If real-life is not interveining in the near future, a first test version will be ready in a few weeks.
The first part will be creating (meta)data like
-terrains
-objects
-soundeffects
-music
-lemmings
If someone is interested in testing in this early phase and give some feedback, I would be very happy.
I could put him/her write down his emailadress and notify him/her where to dowload.
Send me a PM if you are a candidate tester.

[Simon]

Wouldn't it be best to make it open source and/or offer public binaries, to maximize early feedback?

Not sure whether I want to commit to provide regular feedback, but I'd sure like to follow the development process and give the occasional feedback.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

Wouldn't it be best to make it open source and/or offer public binaries, to maximize early feedback?

I'd say it depends on what level of quality and completeness is expected from these "early" versions.  I do agree there's great value for feedback especially on user interface design early on, so that time isn't wasted coding and testing stuff that's fundamentally flawed on a design level.  On the other hand, if the expectation of these early versions is that there could be a number of prominent bugs, a "too-open" early release can have the effect of not getting sufficient breadth of testing (ie. people stop trying the editor after running into bugs one too many times), or discourage more testing further down the line when things start to stablize (ie. people got impression from early release that it's buggy, not worth their time, and stop looking at it later on even when things got much better).  Similarly, releasing versions with known major incomplete areas "X" to general public may only serve to encourage feedback of the type "it doesn't do X", "X doesn't work" that aren't terribly helpful (again, the same can theoretically happen in limited release as well, but at least you get less of it).  There is the fact that not all user feedback is created equal, although that issue isn't really solved by limited releases either.

As for open source, in terms of maximizing early feedback I'm not sure how useful it is.  First consider the fact that it is only of interest to anyone who knows programming, and is familiar with the language being used.  Off top of my head, I'd say it is of use primarily only if Eric is committed to a Linux version and that he is not planning to release actual binaries for Linux version during early testing phase, in which case having compilable source is the only alternative left for early testing on that platform.  Even then it is not clear whether source release needs to be fully open to public, instead of only to the few committed specifically to that line of testing.

Ultimately I trust Eric has taken all that into consideration, and will figure out when he feels is a right time for general public release vs limited release etc. for testing.  I do agree with Simon that the earlier a public alpha release happens, the better, so long as there's a reasonable level of quality and completeness that makes it worthwhile for the general public to try out.

[Ron_Stard]

Will this new version have a port for Linux?  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/laugh.gif" alt=":D" title="Laugh" class="smiley" />

[EricLang]

Lemmix will become opensource.
But more important: Lemmix can be extended by writing addons, for anyone who is able to write delphi code.

I have never ported my delphi code to another platform, so if I will do that it will be one of the last things i do.

The first feedback I need is mostly on userinterface stuff.
The early testversions will not be opensource, for abvious reasons.