Mac version screenshots

[finlay]

So that I'm not clogging up the music thread any longer... I've taken some screenshots of the training levels in Fun, which should give you a rough idea of how the graphics were updated for the Mac version.

I do have screenshots of the rest of the levels in Fun but I will have to stitch them together, which is what takes up all the time, essentially.

[Mr. K]

I'm going to toss this in here since we were talking a bit about it and because I have screenshots.  Hopefully this is interesting to someone.

I've made a copy of the 12-level Mac demo I have, called the "Lemmings Mini-Game".  Apparently other demos are only 4 levels.  This one came on the Macintosh Productivity and Entertainment sampler CD packaged with a Macintosh Performa 600, purchased in 1993.  It contains one interesting level I've never heard of anywhere else: Fun 2 is "The Apple Computer Level" which is winnable without doing anything at all.  Fun stuff.  I wonder if it's implemented the way the "special" levels are, or as a normal tileset.

The level list is as followed (except Mayhem, because I ragequit after screwing up The Boiler Room's solution three times in a row)
Fun 1: Just dig!
Fun 2: The Apple Computer Level
Fun 3: Now use miners and climbers
Tricky 1: This should be a doddle!
Tricky 2: Lemmings in the attic
Tricky 3: Ozone-friendly Lemmings
Taxing 1: Watch out, there's traps about
Taxing 2: Come on over to my place
Taxing 3: How do I dig up the way?
Mayhem 1: The Boiler Room
Mayhem 2: ?
Mayhem 3: ?

I've grabbed a few screens from my Power Macintosh 6100/60 (would've used the Performa but the power supply needs replaced before it'll boot again).  The sound doesn't work on PPCs, because this is from before the processor transition (they fixed it in later versions of the full game, but not this obviously).

http://lemmingsforums.com/storage/LMG1.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

http://lemmingsforums.com/storage/LMG2.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

http://lemmingsforums.com/storage/LMG3.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

http://lemmingsforums.com/storage/LMG4.png" alt="" class="bbc_img" />

Download (Stuffit SIT file): http://lemmingsforums.com/storage/LemmingsMiniGame.sit" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">here

[ccexplore]

Awesome! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/thumbsup.gif" alt=":thumbsup:" title="Thumbs Up" class="smiley" /> Will definitely try it out soon once I have a chance.

The Apple level is almost 99% a special graphics level, I can't imagine them wasting time piecing regular terrain and eraser terrain together to form graphics they can easily cut-and-paste with the special graphics method.  Hopefully I should be able to confirm at some point, as I've been able to extract Mac Lemmings level data since a long time ago.

[edit: now 99.9% sure even without doing any file extractions.  The exit object is recognizably from the "Roman/Pillar" set which features predominantly yellow hues.  Unless they augmented that graphics set in that version with additional terrain pieces, it would be impossible to create the rainbow of colors with only the standard terrain pieces from that set.  And frankly it would seem more work to create new terrain pieces rather than just do a special graphics level.  Plus, other nonstandard versions on PC (eg. Covox etc.) have precedence of unique special graphics levels.]

BTW, any idea if there's any significance to "21" as it's featured in skill numbers on the Apple level?

[finlay]

The mac levels are really easy to extract because the Classic Mac used to come with a tool called Resedit which you could hack into the resource fork of like anything with. And the lemmings levels were packed as resources in the resource fork in pure .LVL format and the version I have came with a handy "template" which actually explained explicitly most of how the format works. So you could open up a level resource and there'd actually be a box labelled "Climbers" or "Floaters" and so on. The other bits of the file which describe the objects and terrain were left as hex, but it did explicitly delimit where the object data ended and the terrain data begun, so from there it was a matter of fiddling experimentally to see how it affected the level in-game in order to work out how the format worked.

However, I've still never worked out how to unpack the graphics. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" />

As for the sound, I know that I had to use a program to hack into Lemmings to make the music work from OS 8 onwards. Could it be related to that?

[ccexplore]

I'm going to toss this in here since we were talking a bit about it and because I haThe level list is as followed (except Mayhem, because I ragequit after screwing up The Boiler Room's solution three times in a row)
Fun 1: Just dig!
Fun 2: The Apple Computer Level
Fun 3: Now use miners and climbers
Tricky 1: This should be a doddle!
Tricky 2: Lemmings in the attic
Tricky 3: Ozone-friendly Lemmings
Taxing 1: Watch out, there's traps about
Taxing 2: Come on over to my place
Taxing 3: How do I dig up the way?
Mayhem 1: The Boiler Room
Mayhem 2: ?
Mayhem 3: ?

Using resource extraction and some logic, I believe Mayhem 2 is "Just a Minute..." and Mayhem 3 is "Time to Get up!" [edit: wrong!].  I've also confirmed that the Apple Computer level is indeed a special graphics level.  Unfortunately it's been such a long time since I last extracted the Mac special graphics, I forgot exactly what I did and it may take some time before I worked it out again  (as in, finlay could probably do it manually via copy and paste of screenshots in less time than I figuring out what I did back in the day.) http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" class="smiley" /> I should be able to extract the regular graphics much more easily, but it's probably exactly the same as the full game so it may be pointless.

As for sound and music, I also couldn't get it to work on my emulator on the PC, though I have no idea what OS version it tries to emulate or how accurate it is (it really isn't that great).  But I did manage to copy the "music" file over to regular Lemmings which has working music in emulator (that copy of regular Lemmings may also have been patched), and by seeing how the music changes as a result, I believe the demo cycles through these 4 music in given order:

1) can-can
2) [the original composition that starts with "me fa so do2" in relative solfage]
3) [the original composition that starts with fast notes of "me me so me etc." in relative solfage]
4) Dance of the Reed Flutes (from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker)

(will update 2 and 3 later once I found corresponding DOS or Mac level music from full game)

One exception is Fun 2, the Apple Computer Level, which seems to have no music (though I can't be sure if that's really the case had sound been working in the demo itself).  [edit: to clarify, this means Fun 2 of the demo didn't get #2 in the list of 4 above, but Fun 3 does skip ahead and go to #3 in the list]

[ccexplore]

Unfortunately it's been such a long time since I last extracted the Mac special graphics, I forgot exactly what I did and it may take some time before I worked it out again

Okay, wasn't as bad as I fear, though it would've saved me hours of time if I took care to jot down a note!  (I did now so I won't forget again.)  Anyway, I've attached the extracted special graphics terrain bitmap, though it's not really not much more than what you already saw from Mr K's screenshots.

If I have time I'll try to downconvert it into a resolution and size suitable for DOS Lemmings, in a way that preserves the terrain using how the Mac mechanics go from 2x2 blocks of hi-res pixels to corresponding low-res pixel, with the eventual goal of creating a clone of this special graphics level for PC Lemmings.  That said, it's all pretty moot when the level is solvable without doing anything! http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/undecided.gif" alt=":-\" title="Undecided" class="smiley" />

[finlay]

As for sound and music, I also couldn't get it to work on my emulator on the PC, though I have no idea what OS version it tries to emulate or how accurate it is (it really isn't that great).  But I did manage to copy the "music" file over to regular Lemmings which has working music in emulator (that copy of regular Lemmings may also have been patched), and by seeing how the music changes as a result, I believe the demo cycles through these 4 music in given order:

1) can-can
2) [the original composition that starts with "me fa so do2" in relative solfage]
3) [the original composition that starts with fast notes of "me me so me etc." in relative solfage]
4) Dance of the Reed Flutes (from Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker)

(will update 2 and 3 later once I found corresponding DOS or Mac level music from full game)

One exception is Fun 2, the Apple Computer Level, which seems to have no music (though I can't be sure if that's really the case had sound been working in the demo itself).  [edit: to clarify, this means Fun 2 of the demo didn't get #2 in the list of 4 above, but Fun 3 does skip ahead and go to #3 in the list]

From what I remember of your emulator (because I saw a screenshot of it back in the proverbial day) it runs some flavour of OS 7 – so you wouldn't need a patch to get the music working. Interestingly, the patch was only needed for Original Lemmings – I've never had to patch a copy of ONML to get the music working. Presumably, however, it emulates a PowerPC rather than whatever came before that.

The Special levels in the original game got their own music – presumably it was programmed so that the special levels automatically went to music resource 18 or something, which would explain why the Apple Computer level hasn't got any.

As for the musics you didn't know, are they this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg
and this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC_rKgJViqc" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC_rKgJViqc
?

(Interestingly, the demo I knew, which is downloadable as "Lemmings Jr" on the Lemmings Universe website, had similar music, but Nutcracker was for level 3 (Lend a helping hand) and Ten Lem was used for level 4 (And then there were four))

[ccexplore]

As for the musics you didn't know, are they this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg
and this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC_rKgJViqc" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC_rKgJViqc

Yes and yes, thanks for the links. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/smiley.gif" alt=":)" title="Smiley" class="smiley" />  Much better than referring to levels in the full game.

[Mr. K]

ccexplore, the Apple Computer level does indeed have music.  It's the first song finlay linked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg) -- I remember that from way back when I played this as a kid, it was my favorite song on the demo.

Anyway, I just pushed this through a 68k Mac emulator (Basilisk II) with System 7.1 and also System 7.5.5 installed and... no music.  Which is weird.  There are several old games where that happens, and I've never figured out why.  Must depend on specific sound hardware from the early Macs/Mac IIs or something and later versions patched it to use software.

[ccexplore]

ccexplore, the Apple Computer level does indeed have music.  It's the first song finlay linked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxubCD6ILeg) -- I remember that from way back when I played this as a kid, it was my favorite song on the demo.

Thanks for verifying.  Since I couldn't get sound to work on the actual demo, I suspect that the inability to get the music to play using the hack of replacing the music file from full game with demo version is probably more because it was a special graphics level, and not because it was intentional.

So with that resolved, the cycle of 4 songs occur completely over all 12 levels without interruption.

Anyway, I just pushed this through a 68k Mac emulator (Basilisk II) with System 7.1 and also System 7.5.5 installed and... no music.  Which is weird.  There are several old games where that happens, and I've never figured out why.  Must depend on specific sound hardware from the early Macs/Mac IIs or something and later versions patched it to use software.

Hmm, so maybe the emulator wasn't broken then in terms of sound.

When I was browsing through the extracted resources for the demo game's main file, I did seem to see something about the sound driver used being "hardware optimized" or something, so your theory seems to hold water.

Actually come to think of it, I wonder if I can get music to work on the demo version by replacing the resource holding what appears to be the sound driver with the corresponding version from full game?  If I succeed I'll let you know.

[finlay]

Mayhem 3 is Steel Mines of Kessel. Don't know what the hell they were thinking with that one  http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

EDIT: WTF it has a goal of 75% instead of 90% as it is in the real game, presumably making it actually completeable. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/angry.gif" alt=">" title="Angry" class="smiley" />

[ccexplore]

Mayhem 3 is Steel Mines of Kessel.

Whoops.  I got confused apparently. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/XD.gif" alt=":XD:" title="XD" class="smiley" />

If you extract the resources yourself, you'll find only 11 levels, one of which is the special graphics level.  So one level was repeated but I forgot it was Fun 1 and Tricky 3, and all the levels are in their harder version configurations, title and skills-wise (the demo uses the "oddtable" system just like the full game), so I ran into "Time to Get Up" and thought that's that for Mayhem.  I forgot that one was used in Tricky 2 already, and also forgot about Steel Mines....

Not sure what to make about the save percentage. http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/shocked.gif" alt=":o" title="Shocked" class="smiley" /> It sounds like this "demo version" was possibly released after the full version, so maybe they figured out the mistake by then and have corrected it?  75% is way too generous though I think.

[EDIT: actually, just checked, the DOS full version is also 60/80 for that level!  Of course, as is relatively well-known, the DOS version also gives you 20 of builders, blockers and bombers, rather than 10, so it was always easier to begin with.

Did the Mac demo have 20 for skills too instead of 10?]

[finlay]

No. The ordinary Mac version has the goal of 72/80 and 10 of each skill. This version only alters that one thing to 60/80.

I wasn't actually aware that the DOS version has 20 of each skill. You had it easy, man http://www.lemmingsforums.com/Smileys/lemmings/cry.gif" alt=":'(" title="Cry" class="smiley" />

(The only other version I've played it on, and the only other version that I've played through the entire game on, is the PSX version – I seem to remember that it had 60/80 but not sure about the skills. Anyway it was pretty much a straight port of the Windows version in many ways, and that in turn was based on the DOS version instead of the Amiga version – you can tell because it uses the limit of 80 lemmings and has no water on most levels, which makes no sense for a relatively high-powered system like Windows or Playstation. The Mac version was based directly on the Amiga version but reduces the limit to 80 lemmings as well – it sticks a lot closer to the stats of the Amiga version and the terrain isn't explicitly changed significantly in any level, beyond hi-res graphics. The goal of 72/80 fits with the general pattern in the game of keeping the percentage consistent with the Amiga rather than the number of lemmings that you can lose...)

Also yeah, "Time to get up" isn't in it – it's Boiler Room→Just a Minute→Steel Mines.

[Tsyu]

If it isn't too much trouble, could someone rip the Apple level? I know the level is very, very simple, but I would still like to have it.

[mobius]

If it isn't too much trouble, could someone rip the Apple level? I know the level is very, very simple, but I would still like to have it.

Are you, by chance, Tseug? (who once went by Tseug)