[SNES] Lemmings SNES point records

[MASTER-88]

Did anyone trying make as many points as possible on SNES. Snes is only version you can see your points after level completion.For example here
<a href="http://img713.imageshack.us/i/tricky2510018.jpg/" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://img713.imageshack.us/i/tricky2510018.jpg/</a>
You will see my final score was 10018 in cascade. Thats just requires i have to beat level 100% saved and let 18 skills remain. Not easy task LOL.

Points counts with two things:
1-Try save as many % as possible (100% lemmings saved is always 10000 points)
2-Use less items as possible. (1 item remain is always 1 point and etc....

For example fun level 1:
Save 100%= 10000 points. Save nine diggers=9 points total= 10009 Points.

I am making every levels through. I am posted my records in cyberscore.

<a href="http://www.cyberscore.me.uk/game-lemmings-snes.php" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">http://www.cyberscore.me.uk/game-lemmings-snes.php</a>

There is some examples
Fun 1 10009 (just used digger & 100% saved
Fun 2 10000 (just beat level 100% saved)
Fun 3 9407 (used 3 blocker & saved 94%)
Fun 4 10000 (only way beat level all skills are required)
Fun 5 10047 (used three basher and saved 100%)
Fun 6 9608 (two bomb is required and 96% saved
Fun 7 10018 (just used two builders and saved 100%)
Fun 8 10157 (3 skills is required beat level 100%)
Fun 9 10158 (2 skills is required beat level 100% saved)

etc.... You guys can see my all records in cyberscore see link.

Did you guys are trying make points record i might want to hear your records.

[ccexplore]

It'd be easier if you can post all the results you currently have in a table format similar to what we did in our challenges:

Code: [Select]

.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
|Rating | 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 |
|-------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Fun    | 1 10  3 11  3  2  2  3  3  3  3  5  3  5  9  9  4  5  6  9  3  7  5  3  4  5  5 10 13  2 |
|Tricky | 4  5  9  9  8  8 12 15  9 14 10  9 13 12  3  6  2  3  5  7  9 11 24  7 13  3 10  5  5  8 |
|Taxing |    8  9        4     9  3  8 12                             7  5 15  6                 7 |
|Mayhem |       4  4     9       14     9  5  6        2           7 28        3        3  7       |
|-------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| 
It's a lot easier than your cyberscore page, since there it forces you to drill down several pages deep just to see results for a single level.

[MASTER-88]

I see. Im not have any idea how i create table like this. But i might post my all records order in first post. Its also quite easy to read compared cyberscore.

[ccexplore]

Let's start with the records we posted at the "http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=153.msg3791#msg3791" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Minimum skills with maximum % Challenge", which is similar to your challenge except for using PC version and not using the SNES points system.  I have replaced the example table above with the one from that thread.  (Note that the table is unfortunately not well-kept and some entries are wrong, I'll update them later.)

Also it's known that on the PC version, only the following levels do not have a 100% solution:

Fun 3:  Lose 3
Fun 6:  Lose 2
Fun 18:  Lose 5
Tricky 15:  Lose 3
Tricky 16:  Lose 4
Tricky 17:  Lose 2
Tricky 18:  Lose 1
Tricky 23:  Lose 1
Taxing 7:  Lose 1
Taxing 19:  Lose 5
Taxing 27:  Lose 3
Taxing 28:  Lose 10
Mayhem 5:  Lose 4
Mayhem 10:  Lose 2
Mayhem 19:  Lose 3
Mayhem 26:  Lose 4
Mayhem 29:  Lose 2

Solutions that work on the PC version do not necessarily work on the SNES, but it's a good start.  You can convert one of our records to the equivalent theoretical SNES score as follows ("skills" = "items"):

SNES score = rounddown((lemmings total - lemmings lost) x 100 / lemmings total) x 100 + total skills - skills used
    [rounddown(x) means drop everything after the decimal point, ie. rounddown(5.99999) = 5]

Maybe if I have time, I can try to write a program to do this calculation for each level and come up with the scores.

Then you can review the scores and see which ones stick out to you as something that you don't know about, and then we can try to see if the record is achievable on SNES or not.

===============

And actually, although we mainly focused on the PC version, a few people including me had done a few levels in SNES versions a long long time ago (due to the ability to use savestates with an SNES emulator, a capability not available for a while on the PC-based versions).  So here are some results I'm pretty sure about:

Tricky 23 lose 1 solution should work on SNES, in fact I first tested it on SNES before I was able to execute it on the PC version.  If I recall correctly it uses up all but 1 skill.

Fun 17 and Taxing 6 (the repeat) 100% solution was tested to work on SNES as well as PC, the solution uses only 4 skills.

All four of the "We All Fall Down" levels were tested to be solvable on SNES using only 3 diggers.  Due to difference in digger mechanics in PC version, these solutions don't actually work on the PC version but does work on SNES, Genesis, etc.

Mayhem 10 lose 2 solution should work on SNES.  You do the start slightly different from PC version due to the difference in basher and the inability to change release rate while paused, but otherwise it works.  Don't remember how many skills left.

Taxing 27, Mayhem 26, and Mayhem 29 record solutions reported on the PC version do not carry over to SNES.  The major difference in Taxing 27 and Mayhem 29 is that the PC version lacks the water, while for Mayhem 26, the PC version generously gives 20 each of the 3 types of skills available, instead of 10.  I remember testing it some time ago and a lose-5 solution should be achievable on SNES for Mayhem 26, and a lose-3 solution for Mayhem 29.

I'll see if I can find saved movies from the emulator on some of these results above, if not maybe I'll re-make them but it'll take some time.

[MASTER-88]

What to f*** 1 lost tricky 23? From the boundary line. 99% saved?

I can did 3 lost on genesis version, but this never work on me on SNES, somereason taking miner to left never work. That 3 lost seems just absolutely best possible even with theory on genesis version and that was super hard here.

Did you have any more tips with this?

[namida]

It's one of those solutions where almost every move is pixel-perfect and doesn't make sense until you see it all put together.

[ccexplore]

What to f*** 1 lost tricky 23? From the boundary line. 99% saved?

I can did 3 lost on genesis version, but this never work on me on SNES, somereason taking miner to left never work. That 3 lost seems just absolutely best possible even with theory on genesis version and that was super hard here.

Did you have any more tips with this?

So sounds like you got the basic idea of it already, since you got lose 3 for genesis (although you should be able to improve to lose 2 there).  Yeah, cursor placement is super-critical in successfully assigning the miner, especially with the skill-optimized lose-1 solution for which you can't/don't use a floater to create a "gap" in the stream of lemmings to help with the miner assignment.  In all versions I've tried lose-1, you have exactly one frame and exactly one cursor position that would allow you to pick out the left-facing lemming out of the stream of right-facing lemmings.  The left-facing lemming is in the middle of falling off the lowest step of the "wooden stairs" leading to the wall, and you need to position the cursor as far down and right as you can, while still able to catch a single lemming at that critical point in time.

I'll definitely try to post a SNES emulator movie for this one.  Below are some hints:

1) Let first lemming turn around at the wall you need to bash through.  He'll be the lemming you'd try to assign miner later.
2) assign climber to next 8 lemmings (you probably want to assign them much earlier, namely as they emerge from entrance trapdoor)
3) next lemming starts bashing the wall
4) right around this time is also when you need to assign the miner, good luck! (use pause so you have time to position the cursor!)
5) next 2 lemming you need to assign both climbers and floaters, but must be done a bit earlier, namely as soon as they emerged from the entrance.  Or maybe just climber/just floater for one of them.  The floating down from the entrance trapdoor provides some delay before they catch up with the miner, while the climbing provides some additional delay as they briefly try to climb up the end of the basher's tunnel.  (The delays are amplified by the fact that the later a lemming catches up to the basher, the farther they'd have to walk to catch up with the miner.)  In fact, with the correct timing, one of them will continually climb and re-climb the moving end of the bash tunnel without ever turning around, and you need that to happen for lose-1.
6) with any luck, your miner will have mined down just barely enough (and barely in time) to prevent anyone from escaping

[edit: let me add a quick note]

You might think that the best way to make it work is for all 10 lemmings after the 1st to all climb and then 11th lemming starts bashing.  However, that intuition turns out to be not quite right.  The fact is, the sooner you start bashing, the more the lemmings following the basher will have to walk (in order to first catch up with the basher, before they can turn around and start heading towards the miner).  But of course if you start too soon, you won't have anywhere near enough delay merely from the floating and climbing to prevent all the lemmings following the basher from catching up with the miner (that's why we still want to send most of them up the wall before starting to bash).  8 turns out to be a magic number where things manage to barely work out.

[ccexplore]

I've created a list of theoretical SNES-scores based mostly on the incomplete PC-version results compiled here.  See attached.

Because a good number of levels haven't been looked at even for PC version, the negative numbers in the list means it's a minimum score based only on the save %, assuming the worst case of no skills left.  Hopefully some time in the future we can actually complete the results for the PC version and then we can update the theoretical scores accordingly.

The idea of this list is for you to see anything that sticks out at you now, and then we can pursue further to actually try to confirm the result for SNES, for example like what we're doing with Tricky 23.

A quick summary of notable differences between PC and SNES version below:
- PC version allows you to adjust the release rate when paused, not on SNES version.  This impacts record solutions that relies on spacing the lemmings in particular ways to achieve favorable timing (eg. Mayhem 16).  This is by far the biggest impact I foresee to PC-version records.
- PC version has a "direct-drop" bug where a lemming can fall directly to an exit and survive instead of splatting.  Not many (if any?) PC-version records rely on this, but obviously any that do will not work on SNES (or at least requires more skills used).
- the PC version lacks water/lava in a good number of levels.  While generally it doesn't affect max % saved (except for a few noted examples), it can sometimes affect the number of skills necessary (though still not very frequent).
- the game clock seems to elapsed slightly slower on PC version compared with SNES, although this doesn't affect most solutions (eg. Mayhem 16 being one that might be affected).  Also counteracting is the fact that SNES uses a fade-out upon running out of time, during which time the game is still running (the PC does an instant-end on out-of-time). [edit: true, but the little time you gain by the fade-out is totally swamped by the faster clock.  empirical measurement shows 1 minute in SNES version is only about 53-54 seconds on PC version.]
- there are very subtle differences in what pixels are removed with bashers and miners (as we've seen with Fun 9 for example).  It's not expected to affect most solutions though.
- a very few PC-record solutions uses glitches that probably don't work on the SNES.  However, note that a good number of known glitches in PC version has been tested to work on SNES version, so this doesn't affect as many solutions as one might think.
- a few levels are simply different between the versions, for example Tricky 21 is totally different on SNES.  A very few levels may have differences in time limit or skills given between the versions.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.

[ccexplore]

Seeing is believing, so here's the lose-1 Tricky 23 solution (with just 1 climber left) for SNES, recorded "movie" using emulator "SNES9x v1.45+ v9 for Windows".  You should be able to find the emulator via search.  The ROM you can get http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/7/15/2915232/LemSNES.zip" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">here, and attached is the .smv recorded movie file you can play back using the emulator and ROM.

Again, to assign the miner, notice how I carefully positioned the selection cursor.  At the time when it's ready, notice how the the position of the selection cursor highlights only the left-facing lemming, who's in the middle of falling off the lowest step of the wood staircase, so that in the bottom of the screen it reads "FALLER 1".  If you unpause and immediately try assigning the miner it'll work.  I recommend making a savestate just before the assignment attempt so you can keep trying.

And notice how the first lemming after the basher (in terms of order coming out of entrance) continues to climb and reclimb the end of the basher's tunnel without turning around.  But I think you still need the floater on that lemming when it emerges from the entrance trapdoor, in order for the timing to work out so that he'll do that reclimb thing in sync with the basher.

The same solution should work in Genesis Lemmings also, except that the sync-reclimb thing doesn't work in that version (it simply doesn't work that way in that version of the game, so no timing will make the lemming do it).  This leads to a lose-2 solution for that version.

[ccexplore]

For "Just a Minute" parts 1 and 2, the SNES clock is so much faster that the 2- and 3-skill solutions in the PC version are pretty much hopeless (and there's also the inability to change RR while paused).  The best I can manage so far is 4 skills on both (3 bashers, 1 digger).  Attached is an SMV emulator movie you can view the same way as previously.

[MASTER-88]

LOL i still have accounts remain. But yeah some SNES version coolest max points here. I´ll make more soon as i can. Some awesome plans here.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-Cn2MW-VOj27UE0r0ysOqY4LIK8uIm19

[Billybobness]

woah you did cascade 100% and with 18 skills left?!? i cant even beat the level normally! props 2 u m8

[namida]

woah you did cascade 100% and with 18 skills left?!? i cant even beat the level normally! props 2 u m8

I'm not sure how that skill count stacks up, but 100% on Cascade has been known since long before this community existed. With that being said - I don't advise looking for it if you can't beat the level normally. The 100% solution is nothing like the normal solution that saves 10% or 12% (depending on which version of the game you have - 12% on DOS and Win95, 10% on Amiga / SNES / Genesis), and is easily on par with late-Mayhem levels, perhaps even harder, in terms of difficulty.

[Proxima]

I'm not sure how that skill count stacks up

Cascade has 33 skills (1 climber, 10 floaters, 5 bombers, 10 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 5 diggers) so 18 left means 15 were used. ccexplore's table in the second post suggests that 100% is possible with 13 used (20 left).

I don't have DOS Lemmings or Lemmix available at the moment, but I had a quick play-through in NeoLemmix (10.13.16) and confirmed that 100% can be achieved with 13 skills (1 floater, 9 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger).

[Billybobness]

well, i can just imagine the work that went into getting the top score on "cascade". i knew that 100% runs on "cascade" have been around for a long time,but using the least amount of skills possible is pretty cool!






                                                            i know the attachment is weird